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[Radio Controlled]

Also, if we can suddenly reserve a spot on things that aren't even there yet, I'm calling dibs on the firstborn of the people who preemptively signed up. Also their livers. And primae noctis.

Joke's on you. Both of those already exist, and I've been doing a fine job of destroying them. All you'll get from me are responsibilities and sadness. Sucker.

Livers, even used ones, always fetch a decent price in the organ markets of Hong Kong. As for firstborns, there's always room for one more in the acid mines deep in the Congo.

You've got a good point. It's tricky to make a game both fun and quick. And inevitably it has to be quick otherwise 60 players ain't gonna work. Not unless we go full meat grinder and 60 players get to play because the average lifespan of a player is 10 turns out in the real world or something.

Time to abandon all pretense and just roll d6's at each other until someone dies!

But seriously we gotta find a way to make this viable and scaling. I should look into boardgames.

Boardgames still have the advantage of usually being face-to-face affairs, but you could certainly have a looksie.

Maybe a system where monsters (and characters) have a minimal and maximal defense value. Attacking with an attack power below the minimum does nothing, above the maximum kills it, and a number in between the two does damage that weakens it but doesn't kill it, represented by lowering the minimum and/or maximum defense (making it easier to wound/kill) and maybe other effects (such as penalty to its attack power or something). Then combat becomes a game of stacking bonuses and multipliers, then simply checking whether the end attack number goes above the minimum or maximum defense, and applying effects as needed.

Could incorporate a wide range of effects (e.g. environmental +1 attack bonus due to high ground, ability to get '*2 defense at 5 faith power next round', etc.), easy to add rock paper scissors mechanics if wanted, allows for more freedom than a restrictive and limited set of moves but can be as quick or as slow as you want (since e.g. getting a number above the maximum means a kill, but this can be described as "you lob its head of, the end" or as a full combat sequence with the same end result, you killing the monster, but described as a series of events instead of 1 singular action). The difference in between the numbers could influence how the fight is described: if you just barely get above the maximum defense of the monster, the fight is described as you managing to kill it in a close fight, but if you go far above it's described as you easily dispatching the foe. Of course, dice could easily be used or not, as preferred (more deterministic vs some random elements).

Combat could be handled where first one entity attacks (attack power gets compared to defense of foe, damage is applied) after which the roles switch, or both could roll for attack at the same time, the values are compared to the other's defences, after which the combat is resolved in a more holistic way. Another advantage is that getting damaged has a very tangible effect: you really see your defense values lower, so a large number of weaker enemies could whittle your defenses down and you'd really feel yourself become more vulnerable (unlike an hp system, where lower hp does mean you are closer to death, but still equally 'effective' in combat, whereas actually lower defense value could make even a very weak starter enemy damage/kill you).

Honestly, I don't see what the flaw with the current system is.  It works fine, it's quick, seemingly easy, and with a few more weapons/skills/cards, it can have a lot of customizability.

Personally, I feel like it's too narrow and restrictive, and doesn't allow for a lot of wiggle room in terms of e.g. creative use of environment and positioning. And can give strange results, such as when the target of your attack is already dead. Finally, I think it'd be more difficult to balance than a system where certain numbers and effects can be changed more easily as the game progresses (such as amount of bonus given by environmental advantages). More frustrating at times for players, of course, when it isn't always clear why their attack did or didn't work as expected, but it gives the gm more tools to create a story with.

[AoshimaMichio]

Now describe that wall-of-text's downsides. It certainly looks good on GM's side, but what about player's viewpoint? I hope it won't be reduced into "I attack it" spam, because it seems rather probable approach.

[Radio Controlled]

The entire point was to allow people to use creative solutions and approaches to combat without it being limited to a certain moveset (and without needing to create an enormous moveset otherwise) while giving some sort of tangible benefit if the right choices are made. So for example, if you encounter a big monster in a plaza, 1 person could say "I stay in front of it, drawing attention but not really attacking, try to focus on evading its strikes" while the second person goes "I try to sneak behind it and go for a crippling blow, willing to use special ability X for Y percent of my faith pool". Then bonuses to attack and defense can be allocated as appropriate, other stats can be rolled for/incorporated as needed, and combat can play out. Can't really do that with the card system, unless the amount of possible cards becomes very expansive.

As for downsides, as pointed out in the post, it does lead to more vagueness for the player, which can be frustrating at times. It would also need good bookkeeping to keep track of all the modifiers, though it can be as complicated or simple as pw wants to make it.

[syvarris]

That last bit seem pretty important to me.  Environmental bonuses are extremely difficult to balance, because you have two options: either you keep a massive list of possible situations, and refer to it  whenever someone tries something, or you balance by thr seat of your pants.  IMO, the latter isn't an option, because PW is terrible at immediate balancing.  It's entirely possible that the first time a strategy is used, it'll give a massive bonus, but the second time, it'll give a minor bonus with a minor risk.  I don't know about you, but an unreliable system like that is extremely frustrating to me.

The former option, maintaining a list, is slightly better.  I don't see PW doing it, but playsrs certainly could.  We could keep a wiki page maintained with all situational bonuses that have occurred before, so that people know exactly what doing X strategy will do for them, and can tell PW so that he doesn't need to look it up.

Finally, your system strikes me as more problematic due to the vaugeness.  If you don't define the mechanics of basic abilities like "move in/out", "block/parry/dodge", etc, people will come up with them on their own.  And they will come up with many more variants than appear in the cards--what's the difference between charging in with a battleaxe, ready to strike, rolling in under the enemy's blade, or walking in with a heavy greatshield?  Either there is little difference, and players have fewer options (leading to Ao's fear of "just attack" being the dominant strategy), or each variation must be defined and recorded (leading to an explosion of complexity).


I like the current system.  You don't.  You pointed out two valid flaws with it; positioning is irrelevant beyond range, and environmental bonuses are nonexistent.  I don't think those two flaws are enough to warrant throwing away the entire system--why not just fix those flaws?  We could add facing to the system, and maybe a "flank" card, or just let "move" cards be used to get closer, farther, or flank.  Environmental bonuses are harder to use, but we could have them exist, with the caveat that the person using them can't move without losing them, or that they're nullified if the opponent successfully plays certain move cards.  The bonuses themselves could be GM-defined beforehand, so that complexity is minimized, or player-defined as the game progresses, leading to an environmental system no better or worse than your system.

[Radio Controlled]

Sure, I've had my fair share of frustration from things not as being consistent over time as I'd like them to be, but overall I'd say that doesn't weigh up against the large amount of freedom you have to use your tools in creative ways. For example, I don't suspect pw thought that we'd use his pocket dimension thing as an extremely useful offensive and defensive weapon/tool via creating multiple portals and using it as a portal gun. I feel that such opportunities would be lost if all possible uses for a weapon have to be captured in cards, and we can't exactly keep adding cards to infinity. Or think of the myriad ways an amp could be used in combat. It's true that melee weapons would have this less due to being more limited in what you can do with them, but still (magical weapons and items being in the game might have the same issue, that you can only use your staff of magical extension to poke enemies from afar, and not eg. use it for impromptu pole vaulting to get you on top of the large demon before you).

One way to put it is that I think that giving the gm and players the tools and freedom they need to create an interesting and engaging story is more important than having a waterproof mechanical system. Sure, the latter might have less frustration and be less arbitrary, but I feel like it'd stymie creativity and expression and pull players out of the roleplaying experience and more into 'spreadsheet simulator 2016' territory. Note that there's nothing wrong inherently with the latter, but I do think that overall most people would have more fun with a looser system (which, upstanding utilitarians that we undoubtedly are, is the end goal here, right? Right?  )

Something to note is that maybe it's not always a big loss if some 'small' differences are only really different fluff-wise, with their raw in-game effects being the same. You can't capture the entirety of physics (a very deterministic 'ruleset' that leads to every little difference having an influence) in a game system that's still fun and easy to use. However, there are options in between 'just attack' and 'map out every small difference', so that only differences that are 'big enough' really impact the gameplay, with the rest being mostly fluff (which shouldn't be underestimated, because even if it doesn't have a big in-game difference, people would still have more opportunity to personalize their character like this).

Basically, the amount of situational bonuses available can be determined by the gm so that not every small detail is accounted for, but sufficiently different strategies still have different outcomes, and people can come up with their own strategies and styles instead of being limited to a set of cards.

[syvarris]

I suppose you have fair points.  I still think my suggestion is better, of course, but I have different preferences than a lot of people.  I can understand how others care less about their actions being mechanically meaningful than their actions being interesting and situational.

[Ozarck]

I think some of that flexibility and player creativity is going to be lost in the new game. PW is leaning toward stricter mechanics for better control and pacing. it's a trade off.

[Radio Controlled]

Sure, but there are many shades between perfect mechanistic systems and total freeform. I just kinda think the card system leans a bit too much toward the former, but I'm not advocating we should move completely to the latter.

Maybe I'll give a very short example of how the system I had in mind might work (just a very quick example, I'm not caring for balance or completeness here). There are, of course, a myriad ways in which this could be altered, so don't go pinning against details or imbalances here.

Spoiler: char sheet (click to show/hide)

Name/personal info
attack: 1d6
How good you kill things.
minimal defense: 4
How difficult you are to damage, increased by things like being dexterous to avoid attacks or armor to tank attacks.
Maximal defense: 8
How much you take before the grim reaper pays a visit.

stats:
speed/dexterity: 0
How quick you are on your feet or feet-like appendages.
endurance:0
How well you roll with the punches and take hits. Also how many jello shots you can hold up.
magical affinity: 0
How good can you wizard. Do you even conjure bro?

You get 10 points to allocate to stats. You can't directly increase attack or defense values, but these are modified in combat itself through various means.
(Could also say that, for example, base speed divided by 4 is added to attack and defense values so that higher stats directly give you better numbers. That'd be more complex though, so up to gm discretion.)

Getting hit above your max defense and it's game over. Hit between min and max and you suffer damage, lowers max defense and/or maybe min defense, depending on type of damage.

Spoiler: ye olde armory (click to show/hide)

Unarmored: run around butt naked in the apocalypse, why don't you.
No bonus or malus. Free as well.

Light armor: Doesn't hinder the wearer in any way. Doesn't really protect him either though.
Add 1 to minimal defense but nothing to max defense.
Cost: 2 shekels.

Medium armor: Good set of protection, will stop a weak swipe, but don't expect it to make you invincible, champ.
Add 1 to min defense and 3 to max defense, lower speed by 2.
(Alternatively: divide endurance by 4, add to defense values. Depends on how much one wants stats to play an influence.)
Cost: 5 bucks.

Heavy armor: A good set of plate will stop those demons cold. Too bad you can't touch or see your own toes anymore though.
Add 2 to minimal defense and 4 to max defense, but lowers speed by 5.
(Alternatively: divide endurance by 2, add to defense values.)
Cost: 8 cabbages.

Daggers: Pair of knives. You stab with them. Preferably not teammates.
Divide speed by 2, add to attack roll.
Cost: 3 dimes.

Bow and arrow: Poking things with pointy sticks from the comfort of being behind your squishy teammates.
Divide speed by 4, add to attack roll. Uses ammo (arrows), ranged.
Cost: 4 greenbacks for bow, 1 nickel for 3 standard arrows, 1 quarter for 1 'splosive arrow.

Longsword: This is a sword. It is long.
Divide speed by 5, add to attack roll, and gives another flat +2 to attack.
Cost: 5 grand.

Enchanted Longsword: This is a sword. It is long, and screams with the souls of the damned. Bring earplugs.
Divide speed by 5 and magical affinity by 3 and add to attack roll., and gives another flat +1 to attack.
Cost: 9 grand.

Doombox: a boombox playing sweet tunes that lift the soul and raise your spirits. Demons hate that.
Choice of two tapes, more can be bought later:
Pounding techno music: Get your allies pumped up! Gives a +2 to all allied attack rolls.
Cost: your eardrums.
Freestyle jazz: Not even demons from hell can stand such cacophony. -4 to all demon defense values, -1 for allied defense.
Cost: Your sanity.

Do remember that a lot of the bookkeeping would only need to be done once, and can then be put on the wiki or whatever so as to minimize the math pw needs to do for a turn.

Spoiler: example monsters (click to show/hide)

Gaggle of beakdogs
Attack: 5
minimal defense:2
Maximal defense:8
Dogs mutated to have large sharp beaks for poking. Low durability (hence low min defense) but comes in packs (so high max defense, to represent there being a bunch of them)

Dancing mantis
Attack: 6
minimal defense:5
Maximal defense:7
speed: 9
An extremely agile being that bobs and weaves around attacks, trying to get into a foe's blind spot to strike. Difficult to hit (hence high min defense), but also fragile (max defense is barely higher, so the moment you do get a hit in it's almost certainly dead).
For every point of speed that you are lower than it, lower min defense by 1. AoE attacks get +3 to attack value against this foe.

Hedgehog surprise
Attack: 7
minimal defense:1
Maximal defense:2
When it sense danger, ot bulges up and explodes into a spray of deadly rust shrapnel. However, if you spot it quickly, it is easily dispatched.
negates any speed or dex bonuses to defense (to represent the fact that AoE is good vs low armor high dex types).
Roll 1d4 + magical affinity level, you spot it if you reach at least 5.

Also, you can have as much or as little dice influence as you want. For example, the dancing mantis attack value of 6 could easily be replaced by '1d6 + 2' to make things less predictable. Oh, and if you keep the 'stats' of the monsters hidden, you could have a rather deterministic system (for the gm) but where players can't precisely predict how much power they'll need to defeat something when they first encounter it, but over time they'll learn and be better able to deal with known enemies. For example, if you don't tell the players they take a hit on defense value when they're much slower than it, they'll have to figure that out by themselves by carefully reading the combat description (which would then need to actually reflect things like this, of course).

The system is a bit like the munchkin card game, which is easy to use but has the disadvantage that you need to do some basic arithmetic, which is only really annoying if you don't keep a quick sheet to easily keep track of the numbers (recalculating everything every time can be a drag, but with good bookkeeping support that should be very doable). You could replace the two defense values by just 1 defense value, or even just determine combat outcome by comparing a single 'combat power' number, highest wins, and difference between the two decide who wins and what the outcome is (a kill, a draw, or wounding so tnat its combat power drops, making a kill more likely next turn). The exact mechanics can be as simple or complicated as pw feels he can handle, but the base idea of just rolling up a lot of variables into a few/a single number(s) that are compared stays the same.

[Parisbre56]

The standard way to add  environmental advantages in card games is to use environment cards. Say, for example, that you are fighting inside a factory with no OSHA compliance: many moving parts, lots of danger. The "dangerous environment" card applies to each player, making it so that moving has a chance to fail or cause damage or something like that. However, a player that focuses heavily on ranged attacks spends a turn activating the "damn good ground" card that gives them a Dex bonus and makes it harder for others to move in. Or maybe the players are hunting a key-demon in the jungle, so before battle starts one player activates the "ambush" card and the other activates the "death from above" card, both of which are cards that can only be activated in appropriate environments.

[syvarris]

@Radio
Okay... this is kinda nitpicking, but you really just posted an alternative health system.  The system you posted isn't mutually exclusive with the card system, and would actually work pretty well with it.  All you did was make health more complicated, and remove the card system for attacks and other combat actions.

@Paris
I think this kinda misses the point of Radio's complaints.  If I understand him correctly, he wants creativity to be rewarded, and to not feel like his actions are completely limited to what appears on premade cards.  This is why I suggested environmental effects be dictated by a character's movement; it allows people to use effects on the fly, as opportunity presents itself.

It also makes a bit more sense.  If using Death From Above or Ambush bonuses requires a card, then a person has to sacrifice a normal card slot to make room for an environmental card that will be used very rarely.  That said, I suppose it could be interesting if a player had a secondary deck of environmental cards, so a character can be built to be really skilled in certain types of areas.  Hmm.

[Egan_BW]

Player creativity and a reliable and complex combat system seem mutually exclusive, and the latter seems to be what PW desires. vOv?

[Parisbre56]

I don't see a difference. You're just codifying types of situations and the bonuses they give in card form. A player can be as creative as he wants, but in the end, his actions will always have a limited effect on the rolls and a limited way of applying to those rolls. So if you have a list of types of actions a player can take and the sort of bonuses they give, you can more easily balance them. That will always be true when using an HP-based or other point-based system, whether you're using cards or not.

In fact, I bet that if we tried, we could easily come up with a number of environment cards, environment modifier cards, action cards and effect cards that apply to most situations a player is likely to encounter. And it probably won't end up being that many cards. The GM can then do different names, combinations and variations, but the basic cards will always be the same. If a very rare situation we hadn't anticipated comes up, then we just make something on the fly, like we always do

[Doomblade187]

@Paris

About that list being short: perhaps we could just have move cards have different effects and effectiveness in different environments. For instance, the "Ambush" card would give a larger bonus in the jungle than in the plains. And "Death From Above" wouldn't work unless you can actually get physically above the enemy, so it would be hard to use in the plains.

[piecewise]

Player creativity and a reliable and complex combat system seem mutually exclusive, and the latter seems to be what PW desires. vOv?

I just want something that people can have fun with, and that won't slow the game down too much so that we can actually get people out and back quickly enough to make our 5 man teams a not insurmountable bottle neck.

[NJW2000]

Was the corruption mechanic a "carrot and stick" (well, stick) feature to drive players on then?