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Author Topic: ORO: ANOTHER QUESTION  (Read 117362 times)

syvarris

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #420 on: April 24, 2016, 12:06:41 pm »

I wrote up my own version of the turn, because I am amazing at time management, but PW ninja'd me.  Oh well.

I'll comment on his version anyway, though.  I think he's messing up with the stances; Most obviously, at the end of the turn, he listed Spaz as being in both aggro and def stances.  Spaz is in Def, Egan is in Aggro.  Also, Spaz dealt two damage to Whisp, not one, because he was in Aggro while Whisp was in def--they essentially nullify each other.

Finally, you're actually nerfing knives there, Peedubs.  Under normal circumstances, a knife fighter can assume aggro stance to counter defensive, which grants them +1-1 damage, leaving them with one damage, twice per turn--equal to katanas and kopeshes, just with worse range and better incrementing.  Not that knives don't deserve a nerf--in double aggro battles, they deal 1+1+1*2 damage, better than a kopesh's 2+1+1, again with better incrementing.  Double aggro honestly seems to be the way to go most of the time, unless your opponent is just built better than you.  Nerfing knives to two tries at a three damage attack seems like a good idea--it's worse damage than a kopesh, but more chances to use the damage buff, and three's all you need for an instakill on the head.

Though, double aggro grants an effective +4 to-hit, so maybe the double strike isn't really a benefit.  And the knife does have a range disadvantage, which is problematic... The knife does have crippling blow, though, which can enable up to twelve damage in a single turn... but it only targets limbs, which reduces its utility against unarmored people a fair bit, due to the low limb HP...  and kopeshes are built for anti-armor already.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't nerf knives like that, PW.

Spoiler: @Spaz (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: @Egan (click to show/hide)

spazyak

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #421 on: April 24, 2016, 12:09:26 pm »

oh thanks Syv.
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piecewise

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #422 on: April 24, 2016, 12:48:08 pm »

I wrote up my own version of the turn, because I am amazing at time management, but PW ninja'd me.  Oh well.

I'll comment on his version anyway, though.  I think he's messing up with the stances; Most obviously, at the end of the turn, he listed Spaz as being in both aggro and def stances.  Spaz is in Def, Egan is in Aggro.  Also, Spaz dealt two damage to Whisp, not one, because he was in Aggro while Whisp was in def--they essentially nullify each other.

Finally, you're actually nerfing knives there, Peedubs.  Under normal circumstances, a knife fighter can assume aggro stance to counter defensive, which grants them +1-1 damage, leaving them with one damage, twice per turn--equal to katanas and kopeshes, just with worse range and better incrementing.  Not that knives don't deserve a nerf--in double aggro battles, they deal 1+1+1*2 damage, better than a kopesh's 2+1+1, again with better incrementing.  Double aggro honestly seems to be the way to go most of the time, unless your opponent is just built better than you.  Nerfing knives to two tries at a three damage attack seems like a good idea--it's worse damage than a kopesh, but more chances to use the damage buff, and three's all you need for an instakill on the head.

Though, double aggro grants an effective +4 to-hit, so maybe the double strike isn't really a benefit.  And the knife does have a range disadvantage, which is problematic... The knife does have crippling blow, though, which can enable up to twelve damage in a single turn... but it only targets limbs, which reduces its utility against unarmored people a fair bit, due to the low limb HP...  and kopeshes are built for anti-armor already.

Yeah, you probably shouldn't nerf knives like that, PW.

Spoiler: @Spaz (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: @Egan (click to show/hide)
Fixed the mistakes, but knives only attack twice per instance, not three times, which you seem to think?

syvarris

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #423 on: April 24, 2016, 01:22:53 pm »

You misunderstand; the "1+1+1" is a single attack, and the "*2" indicates two attacks.  If both people have aggro stance, a knife deals three damage, and attacks twice, for a potential of six damage.  A kopesh or katana does four damage in a similar situation, and makes or breaks all that damage on one roll, where the knife gets two chances at three damage.  Also, three damage is equal to a head's HP, so the knife user essentially gets two rolls to instakill their opponent, while their opponent gets only one.

In a defense vs aggro battle, the knife does two one damage attacks per turn, while the opponent does one two damage attack per turn.  They have identical potential damage, but the knife user gets two chances at a head hit, stunning their foe if either attack hits. 

Basically, in a normal battle, the knife always has the advantage.  Even factoring in special attacks, the knife's got it pretty good; crippling blow grants a permanent *2 to damage on a certain limb (which I think is slightly better than the katana's quick draw).  It does have the disadvantage of lower defense due to range, but that's mitigatable (through armor--see below).  Only the kopesh's cleave ability is on a similar level, and even then only when the knifer has heavy armor and assuming cleave ignores armor.

Hence why I end up saying the knife shouldn't be nerfed.  If it were, the kopesh is the undisputed king.  As it is, there's two valid munchkin builds:
Spoiler: Oro's Havelmonster (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Kopesh Knight (click to show/hide)

Katana should basically never be used.  Quickdraw is decent, but is too easy to counter and the katana only beats the dagger in raw damage if the dagger hasn't landed a crippling blow.  The katana will quickly run out of quickdraws, while both other weapons only need to land their special once per limb.

Maybe Kopesh and dagger are just OP, though.  It's hard to tell when we only have three weapons.


EDIT:
I just considered something.  The havelmonster literally doesn't care if its legs are chopped off, so the leg armor can be completely removed.  That gives it +1 defense until it loses a leg, which is nice.  By then it'll probably have chopped off your leg, so it balances out.

spazyak

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #424 on: April 24, 2016, 01:28:33 pm »

As I see it the Kopesh should be slow with hacks and cleaves dealing tons of damage, Katanas are a good middle ground of speed versus damage, and knives being all speed little damage
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Egan_BW

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #425 on: April 24, 2016, 01:34:24 pm »

"If you two just keep fighting each other, I might have to leave!"
*Dark Souls laugh*

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syvarris

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #426 on: April 24, 2016, 01:51:44 pm »

@Spaz
The "problem" is that speed == damage in this game, at least currently.  All the weapons are low damage, and buffs are easy to come by.  The minimum damage buff is +1, which is a +100% buff for a knife, or a +50% buff for a katana or kopesh.  Double aggro gives two such buffs, meaning a knife gains a +200% damage while the other two only get a +100%... and the knife further doubles that because it attacks twice.  And crippling blow doubles it again, though that's getting into the range of overkill.

The kopesh almost closes the gap with cleave, which can theoretically do 17 damage in one turn, but in practice that'll almost never happen because heavy armor is more trouble than its worth.  Also, the knife has a theoretical damage ceiling of 16 (1 damage, +2 aggro stances, +1 startup, *2 attack speed, *2 crippling blow), so... yeah.

This might change when heavier weapons are added to the game, or if range gets enforced, but currently the knife has the best damage under almost all circumstances.

spazyak

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #427 on: April 24, 2016, 01:54:27 pm »

 I was trying to describe, albeit poorly, an alternative.
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crazyabe

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #428 on: April 24, 2016, 02:06:42 pm »

Just a thought but perhaps weight could be larger a factor, for example a Knife has little weight and can thus be blocked or parried by almost anything but very hard to dodge and can be used more quickly, while a Zwihander would be easy to dodge and take some time to wind up for a basic attack but almost impossible to block or parry without equel strength to it's wielder.
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piecewise

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #429 on: April 24, 2016, 02:14:21 pm »

For the moment it's more about finding a basic system that works rather than balancing one. I made these weapons up in like 2 minutes for a test, after all.

This card thing is one of a few methods that I thought of, after all.

Parisbre56

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #430 on: April 24, 2016, 04:03:21 pm »

Syv, I don't have the time to think about your analysis too hard, but have you taken into account battling multiple opponents? Because maybe that could change the balance, especially when you take into account that every time you switch targets you essentially get into maximum range with everyone else. Or maybe piecewise could have some weapons that are better against multiple opponents.

Whisperling

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #431 on: April 24, 2016, 04:25:02 pm »

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syvarris

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #432 on: April 24, 2016, 06:05:09 pm »

@Paris
Nope, I wasn't considering multiple opponents at all.  Kopesh probably has the advantage in that case, because it is hurt least by going into a defensive stance.  The knife relies upon aggro stance, but multiple opponents benefit more from the stance than the wielder.

Also, the knife user could potentially be perma-stunned against multiple people spamming feint.  A similar tactic, which would let the katana be more useful, is to use quickdraw and have an ally feint during your startup turn--if it works, you'll get a +2 to each katana strike.  It's still inferior to the other two weapons :P

Range is sorta funny, as it doesn't seem necessary for a knife user to close before attacking--PW let Whisp attack at range 1, with a range 0 weapon.  It only provides a benefit to the attacks of the non-knife person, which is more or less pointless against the havelmonster--it's already dumped defense down enough that maintaining a range bonus isn't worth it.


Oh, and in case it wasn't obvious, the knife build I presented is only good for one fight.  It essentially plans to have one or both legs chopped off, because the time spent doing that is time that can be spent on killing an opponent.  Kopesh is better for a character meant to survive multiple fights, because its wins are less pyrhic.

piecewise

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #433 on: April 24, 2016, 08:39:49 pm »

My turn
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"If you two just keep fighting each other, I might have to leave!"
*Dark Souls laugh*

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Hmm egan does an interesting thing here. Something I never said could not specifically be done, so I'm letting it happen. He waits and regens two quick draws.  Whisperling waits too.  Spaz, however, attacks whisperling's head. Rolls a 1, too low for the min to hit.

Now lets see, Egan attacks spaz, spaz attacks whisper, whisper attacks spaz. Egan and spaz are the same range, so we'll roll to see who goes first. 1 for spaz, 5 for egan. So thats a win for egan. Lets roll out his other two attacks and then spaz's defensive rolls. So 5,3,1 vs 3,2,3.  So he gets one hit in on the head. Normally he does 2 damage, but he's in an aggressive stance so he's dealing 3 damage. But spaz is in a defensive stance so reduces that to 2. Spaz's head HP reduced to 1, stunned. Ah, I guess it should reasonably stop this current instance too. That leaves whisper. Hmm rolls a 2. Moves in one on spaz, reduces range to zero, but fails to hit.

Ah, now we have three attacks all at once. Lets see...Spaz is stunned, Whisper attacks spaz, Egan attacks spaz. You guys need to start doing a daisy chain here, just an ouroboros of stabbing. Fits the game! Pretty sure whisper and spaz are at range zero now, so it's just a roll to see who goes first. 1,6. Ah well. Whisperling misses at least the first  attack, egan gets his attack in first. 6vs5 on spaz's head. Deals two damage, slices spaz's head clean off. Lets move whisperling's target to egan and vice versa. So he missed that first attack, got a 4-1 on the second, to which egan rolls a 1. Their two stances cancel, so he deals 1 damage to Egan's left arm.

Egan attacks head, whisperling parries. 6+1vs2+1+1 Parry fails, 2+1-1 damage to head.  Whisperling is decapitated!

Egan wins with a double decapitation in one turn!

piecewise

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Re: ORO discussion
« Reply #434 on: April 24, 2016, 08:48:11 pm »

Ok, so ignoring the finer details of things like balance, and assuming that in the future there would be more cards, more special moves, magic, etc, what do you think of this kind of combat?

Do you think it's something you could enjoy? Or back to the drawing board?

Other people who were just watching can chime in too.
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