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[Ozarck]

I never said their faith was RIGHT, did I?

No, but you said a few things. 1) the Holy city represents all that is good and right and all that. 2) faith is the defining factor of the PC. 3) there is one religion (in the game) and all PCs belong to it.

Something I don't think people get is that I'm showing you things from the perspective of one civilization. Their faith is their own, and its one of many. And their city wasn't the first targeted and it won't be the last. Their faith is their own, not one I'm prescribing to the universe. And considering how actively alien, frightening and hostile the world around them is, I think it's quite understandable that they'd choose to believe in humanity.

Typically, the more hostile and alien a people view the world as, the less faith they have in humanity and our power to affect it. They tend to be fatalists instead, attributing everything to some inviolable rule, laid down by beings beyond their power to influence at all.

I mean, I don't know which god you follow, but could you really tell yourself he was loving and rewarding and something worth your faith if all the world seemed your enemy?  Even early Christians believed in a jealous, angry god that punished them for minor slights. And they didn't have nightmare beasts roaming just outside the walls. Also, I'll play the jerk card here and say that there is no religion that isn't full of holes unless it is extremely metaphysical and hands off.  I mean, like this:

"Why did god give adam and eve free will if he punished them for using it?"

These are the kinds of issues I would discuss with someone genuinely interested in my viewpoint, not someone simply trying to make a point. One invites conversation, the other invites scorekeeping.

Besides, this isn't about my real life faith, or yours. it's about the faith system in the game. Early on in the description of the game, you were talking about how the holy city is essentially a sort of last bastion of all that is good and holy, and that faith was to be the driving force causing these people to seek out and destroy something very wicked. I was intrigued because the nature of holiness and wickedness are things I am interested in. "Humanity rocks" just seems a rather difficult sell for a "Faith." Especially if a) the whole world around them is alien and hostile - that would militate against humanity as some sort of ultimate Power, and b) humans are corrupt, selfish, argumentative beings, and the "Holy city" is full of strife, spite, and unpleasantness - which would militate against "humanity" being some sort of ultimate "Good."

People can argue that for hundreds of years.  And the thing is that there's no answer that will satisfy everyone.

People can argue bronyism for hundreds of years. or cats vs dogs. or CoD vs Battlefield. Or Coke vs Pepsi.

If people want a pantheon or something different because the "Go humanity!" faith is too 40k for their liking, I can give you one. I can even make it so that the gods are all different enough so that people can do what they like.

But I stress this: There is going to be one religion, and there are no atheists here. Others exist elsewhere in the world but this isn't about them.

I cold see polytheism. I could see monotheism. I could see faith in science. I cold see that extremely metaphysical and hands off faith you mentioned before. But my gut reaction to the faith in humanity as currently described is still "politics, corruption, and powerlessness will have soured the faith of most before this even starts."

Of course, if you are talking about a bunch of teenagers, not yet jaded by the ways of the world, and a few True Believers ... well, there are always some of those.

Well, I'd like if there was some venerated figures or something. Someone or something to represent the ideal of humanity, and the faith as a whole other than "oro bad". Basically, give me an Emperor of Mankind to believe in. Not necessarily a single figure, could be a series of saints, or an oppressed but worshipped underclass of martyrs, or an ancient and wise AI from The Old Days, or some vague spirit.

And their city wasn't the first targeted and it won't be the last.

"Won't be the last" is a bit fatalistic, isn't it?

Well, if the PCs go in with that attitude, their faith meter is going to drop pretty quickly, anyway.

[The Lupanian]

So, could we play a character that sees the faith in a different way? For example, I had an idea for a character that believes in a tribal god that is a god of purity, and they wanted to cleanse ORO because it is corruption. Would that work with the way the church is, would they accept a follower such as this if their core belief is to cleanse ORO, or would that be another religion and there for not a valid character?

I'm cool with whatever, I think I cold really make an interesting character that fits the rules more, but I just want to know before I get too attached to one concept.

Also, how long has the church been around? Because if the concept I described wouldn't work I have an idea that might.

[Nunzillor]

I like it.  Reminds me of Iveson in a lot of ways.

[Radio Controlled]

Eh, the problem is getting it INTO Oro.  From the outside it won't do any good. Even on the inside you'll need to be smart. Raw destructive power isn't whats needed. You need to be like a virus, you need to establish a foothold and grow. You go in there swinging hard and you'll be swarmed and killed in a few minutes. And then your tank will be torn apart, the armor used to patch the holes you blew and the cannon incorporated into the walls to shoot at you.

I think the tank wouldn't engage enemies directly right off the bat, it'd be more like we escort the tank until we find a target worthy for it to shoot (boss monster, demon nest, etc).

Also, what, a virus? PW, you know some biology, you know better. Are we going to subvert parts of the city to replicate ourselves? Is that what you're getting at here?! WE BREEDING INSIDE DEMONS NOW PW?

These early raids on oro are gonna be hot drops, every one.

Sounds fantastic. Can you tell us though if the missions will be 'freeroam' (do what you want) or if we'll get specific objectives from npc's?

Eh. "Church of Human Purity" kills it for me. that makes it feel like there is a bit of a forced attitude about life for the player characters - one subscribes to the "those things are bad because they are different" worldview, and must push a species ideal, rather than fight for something greater. I, as a monotheist IRL, could get behind even a polytheist religion in-game, or into a game such as ER where the multiverse is a mess with no clear religious overtone, but this feels like a forced faith -which makes the city of holiness a brittle, self decaying thing itself, and one almost not worth defending.

Well, like I said, I think it's realistic to expect that a society that's so pressured would be very oppressive and not really welcoming of new ideas or dissent of any kind. And I don't know if the player faction should always be the bastion of goodness, liberty and progressive ideals. Still, doesn't mean a character can't have his or her own ideals to fight for while keeping up appearances outwardly.

I never said their faith was RIGHT, did I?

'Right' is a bit of a empty term, but what we do know is that it works. From your own words, non-believers are corrupted easily, their seers are capable of divining ways of making weapons that can harm the demons. Maybe the key is more in believing in something rather than this specific thing, but for the people in this city the choice is clear: believe what the church/state tell you to, or succumb to corruption, no way around it.

If people want a pantheon or something different because the "Go humanity!" faith is too 40k for their liking, I can give you one. I can even make it so that the gods are all different enough so that people can do what they like.
But I stress this: There is going to be one religion, and there are no atheists here. Others exist elsewhere in the world but this isn't about them.

I'd like "Go humanity!" much more than a pantheon personally, especially if that's how you originally envisioned it, seems like that'd mesh best with the game world, lore and 'tone' as it exists now. One could make a case that making the game more open so people have more options to do as they please is a good thing though. But then they should've picked something other than ORO it seems, it felt like a "play it right or you die, period" kinda game. Seeing what one can do in a much stricter than usual framework can be interesting, make people really work to stand out and be more than another grunt (both in in-game actions and roleplaying options).

Human digestion involves a lot less centipede demons.

Yeah right. You knock out the wrong gene, next thing you know your mice are sprouting rending claws and turning inside out while chanting backwards Sumerian. It's this whole thing, very annoying, especially cause they keep eating the control mice so now the journal refuses to publish the results.

Typically, the more hostile and alien a people view the world as, the less faith they have in humanity and our power to affect it. They tend to be fatalists instead, attributing everything to some inviolable rule, laid down by beings beyond their power to influence at all

I dunno, given how little we know how this society evolved and came to be, I dunno if this should inevitably happen. Hell, maybe there were a bunch of cities out there who thought like that, but said viewpoint led to them not having the strength and conviction to oppose the demon city so they were wiped off the map. Maybe it takes a 'humanity rules, demon city drools' attitude to even get to a point where a city forms an organised resistance, so that's where the focus of the story naturally goes to.

Early on in the description of the game, you were talking about how the holy city is essentially a sort of last bastion of all that is good and holy, and that faith was to be the driving force causing these people to seek out and destroy something very wicked. I was intrigued because the nature of holiness and wickedness are things I am interested in. "Humanity rocks" just seems a rather difficult sell for a "Faith." Especially if a) the whole world around them is alien and hostile - that would militate against humanity as some sort of ultimate Power, and b) humans are corrupt, selfish, argumentative beings, and the "Holy city" is full of strife, spite, and unpleasantness - which would militate against "humanity" being some sort of ultimate "Good."

All sorts of religions and belief systems can have contradictory tenets or things that just don't really make sense but are covered by platitudes or just ignored when convenient. I personally don't really see an issue with this kind of belief system getting a foothold given the circumstances, especially because, again, we know it works in universe. Believing in 'humanity fuck yeah' becomes much easier when you keep seeing that scores of people who don't believe that get destroyed.

[piecewise]

So, could we play a character that sees the faith in a different way? For example, I had an idea for a character that believes in a tribal god that is a god of purity, and they wanted to cleanse ORO because it is corruption. Would that work with the way the church is, would they accept a follower such as this if their core belief is to cleanse ORO, or would that be another religion and there for not a valid character?

I'm cool with whatever, I think I cold really make an interesting character that fits the rules more, but I just want to know before I get too attached to one concept.

Also, how long has the church been around? Because if the concept I described wouldn't work I have an idea that might.

Look at it like gods in a roguelike. If I set up a pantheon, then there will probably be bonuses affixed to it and worship of it. If you want to worship some other god you can but mechanically it will be essentially the same as being without a god and without those bonuses. The only thing I could do is have some sort of generic "Other" slot that gives generic bonuses and requests generic things. but that won't mesh will with 99% of player created gods, I'm sure.

Also, what, a virus? PW, you know some biology, you know better. Are we going to subvert parts of the city to replicate ourselves? Is that what you're getting at here?! WE BREEDING INSIDE DEMONS NOW PW?

Inside demons, no, but we are going to have to disguise our settlements if we get into the body of oro proper. Make it think we're part of it while we set up shop and live there. Because otherwise we'd be a single small colony of bacteria against the might of a mechanized immune system. We'll be playing the generalized virus role of using parts of oro to hide ourselves in while we gather power. Gotta hijack that MHC.

Sounds fantastic. Can you tell us though if the missions will be 'freeroam' (do what you want) or if we'll get specific objectives from npc's?

It will be a combination of exploration and a goal. I mean, you guys can go out and do whatever you want, but the goal will be making it to the next place you can set up a base and securing it. Thats the general way to make progress. Because ORO can always make more demons, it can always heal itself. You can go hunting if you want something specific, but in the end the only way to really open that shortcut deeper into oro is to establish another foothold. Though there's only so many of those you can establish either. Takes time and effort to do.

I'd like "Go humanity!" much more than a pantheon personally

Why do people do this to me.

[Pancaek]

Why do people do this to me.

Maybe have a pantheon, with one god being an ascended former human who's preachings are "humanity fuck yeah"? This we we can have our donut and jam it into our cake and eat all of it.

[Radio Controlled]

Inside demons, no, but we are going to have to disguise our settlements if we get into the body of oro proper. Make it think we're part of it while we set up shop and live there. Because otherwise we'd be a single small colony of bacteria against the might of a mechanized immune system. We'll be playing the generalized virus role of using parts of oro to hide ourselves in while we gather power. Gotta hijack that MHC.

Ah, I see, ok then. So kinda like molecular mimicry, to keep up the biology analogy. I'd argue certain types of bacteria or parasites might fit better, but then again the virus analogy might explain it more evocatively to others. Does this imply that players characters can also try to camouflage themselves to evade detection inside the city, making it into a sort of stealth game at certain points?

Why do people do this to me.

Because you made the classic mistake of listening to us, the unwashed masses, instead of ignoring the mewling plebs and just doing your thing.

But seriously, you can almost never really satisfy everyone, so maybe just take in the various arguments but in the end do what you feel works best. Whatever that turns out to be, we'll just learn to live with it.

It will be a combination of exploration and a goal. I mean, you guys can go out and do whatever you want, but the goal will be making it to the next place you can set up a base and securing it. Thats the general way to make progress. Because ORO can always make more demons, it can always heal itself. You can go hunting if you want something specific, but in the end the only way to really open that shortcut deeper into oro is to establish another foothold. Though there's only so many of those you can establish either. Takes time and effort to do.

"Some freedom, but not total freedom, with clear subgoals to work towards" then? Sounds good to me!

[piecewise]

Inside demons, no, but we are going to have to disguise our settlements if we get into the body of oro proper. Make it think we're part of it while we set up shop and live there. Because otherwise we'd be a single small colony of bacteria against the might of a mechanized immune system. We'll be playing the generalized virus role of using parts of oro to hide ourselves in while we gather power. Gotta hijack that MHC.

Ah, I see, ok then. So kinda like molecular mimicry, to keep up the biology analogy. I'd argue certain types of bacteria or parasites might fit better, but then again the virus analogy might explain it more evocatively to others. Does this imply that players characters can also try to camouflage themselves to evade detection inside the city, making it into a sort of stealth game at certain points?

Well...sort of. See, Oro is both ecology and anatomy. There are lots of kinds of demons in ORO; the "Blood of ORO" demons are those which exist and act entirely to maintain ORO itself. And the majority of them will ignore anything that does not pose an active threat to ORO's systems or to themselves. The dog sized spider demon who changes light bulbs isn't gonna flip its shit and attack you unless you attack it or start smashing lights. But when you do aggro them, if they can get away, they'll inform what amounts to the immune system. This can also happen if the "immune" demons just happen to see you. And the thing is, once the immune demons see you, they are just gonna keep coming, and in greater and greater numbers. So it would be smart to not start trouble unless you need to, at least with them.

But there are lots of other demons around which don't ignore you. These are ones born from assimilated lands or ones that act like parasites or beneficial bacteria in your gut or anything like that.  And what they do depends largely on where you are and what they are.

[Ozarck]

Early on in the description of the game, you were talking about how the holy city is essentially a sort of last bastion of all that is good and holy, and that faith was to be the driving force causing these people to seek out and destroy something very wicked. I was intrigued because the nature of holiness and wickedness are things I am interested in. "Humanity rocks" just seems a rather difficult sell for a "Faith." Especially if a) the whole world around them is alien and hostile - that would militate against humanity as some sort of ultimate Power, and b) humans are corrupt, selfish, argumentative beings, and the "Holy city" is full of strife, spite, and unpleasantness - which would militate against "humanity" being some sort of ultimate "Good."

All sorts of religions and belief systems can have contradictory tenets or things that just don't really make sense but are covered by platitudes or just ignored when convenient. I personally don't really see an issue with this kind of belief system getting a foothold given the circumstances, especially because, again, we know it works in universe. Believing in 'humanity fuck yeah' becomes much easier when you keep seeing that scores of people who don't believe that get destroyed.

Every human believes mutually contradictory things, religious or not. Scientists do it as much as anyone else. But, again, When the universe is shown to be 'alien and hostile' or believed to be, pessimism and fatalism are the main human reactions - not optimism and self confidence. When scores are dying who militate against the "humans are the best" ideology, and millions who hold it are dying at the same time, then the 'humans are great' crowd becomes the anti-vaccine crowd, and is riduculed by the masses. There cognitive dissonance, and there is flatearth fanaticism.

PW, go with the humanity is great religion. Just stick with it and push through. the connection between the holiness of the Holy City and the Wickedness of Oro were interesting to me, and I felt that I could make a character that had an impact. Now, I'll likely just make a grunt and shoot what I am told to shoot. Roleplay down, action and quickness of turns up.

Inside demons, no, but we are going to have to disguise our settlements if we get into the body of oro proper. Make it think we're part of it while we set up shop and live there. Because otherwise we'd be a single small colony of bacteria against the might of a mechanized immune system. We'll be playing the generalized virus role of using parts of oro to hide ourselves in while we gather power. Gotta hijack that MHC.

Ah, I see, ok then. So kinda like molecular mimicry, to keep up the biology analogy. I'd argue certain types of bacteria or parasites might fit better, but then again the virus analogy might explain it more evocatively to others. Does this imply that players characters can also try to camouflage themselves to evade detection inside the city, making it into a sort of stealth game at certain points?

Well...sort of. See, Oro is both ecology and anatomy. There are lots of kinds of demons in ORO; the "Blood of ORO" demons are those which exist and act entirely to maintain ORO itself. And the majority of them will ignore anything that does not pose an active threat to ORO's systems or to themselves. The dog sized spider demon who changes light bulbs isn't gonna flip its shit and attack you unless you attack it or start smashing lights. But when you do aggro them, if they can get away, they'll inform what amounts to the immune system. This can also happen if the "immune" demons just happen to see you. And the thing is, once the immune demons see you, they are just gonna keep coming, and in greater and greater numbers. So it would be smart to not start trouble unless you need to, at least with them.

But there are lots of other demons around which don't ignore you. These are ones born from assimilated lands or ones that act like parasites or beneficial bacteria in your gut or anything like that.  And what they do depends largely on where you are and what they are.

So: Stealth and placement (choice of base location) are more important than dakka and dominance? "Do what you awnt, but you have limited resources and the only thing that matters is the heart?"

[Radio Controlled]

Every human believes mutually contradictory things, religious or not. Scientists do it as much as anyone else.

Perhaps, but the point I was trying to make is that it's possible for humans to have belief systems that are self-contradictory and sometimes even contradict the facts even as those blatantly in sight for all to see. So believing that humanity has the potential to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and is the rightful owner of the earth, even though right now it isn't on either front, doesn't seem extremely far-fetched, at least not to me.

But, again, When the universe is shown to be 'alien and hostile' or believed to be, pessimism and fatalism are the main human reactions - not optimism and self confidence.

I dunno about this. I can see where you're coming from, there's examples in history of oppressed people or people in generally shitty situations having a grim outlook on life and internalizing this, but on the other hand there's also plenty of examples of people rising up against their lot in life, despite others having died for that before them and the chance of success seeming very slim to non-existent. That there would be societies where 'pessimism and fatalism' would become the prevalent atmosphere I am certainly willing to believe, but saying that this is necessarily so seems like a bridge too far. Unless you have data or sources that prove otherwise? I'd honestly be interested in learning more in that case.

When scores are dying who militate against the "humans are the best" ideology, and millions who hold it are dying at the same time, then the 'humans are great' crowd becomes the anti-vaccine crowd, and is riduculed by the masses. There cognitive dissonance, and there is flatearth fanaticism.

I don't think we don't know enough about the world outside the holy city and ORO to really say how well different belief systems hold up under scrutiny. If pw says "every city until now had a different belief system and has fallen, while ours is the first to have a fighting chance" then it makes sense, if he says "other communities have different ways of handling the demon incursions, and some of those work equally well/better/good enough against the cursed city" then the situation becomes very different. All that we do seem to know for sure so far is that those who believe "gogo humanity #1" in this society are corrupted less easily than those who don't believe. That's a real, tangible reason why in this case, in this community, believing what the church says is better than not.

Of course, if there are other ways of attaining this 'extra protection' against corruption the situation might change, but as far as I know we haven't seen a lot of evidence for that yet, and even if that were the case the different communities might be separated enough to prevent knowledge of the alternative solutions from being communicated or spread.

[NJW2000]

Every human believes mutually contradictory things, religious or not. Scientists do it as much as anyone else. But, again, When the universe is shown to be 'alien and hostile' or believed to be, pessimism and fatalism are the main human reactions - not optimism and self confidence. When scores are dying who militate against the "humans are the best" ideology, and millions who hold it are dying at the same time, then the 'humans are great' crowd becomes the anti-vaccine crowd, and is riduculed by the masses. There cognitive dissonance, and there is flatearth fanaticism.

Erm... the premise of a "humanity is great" religion succeeding is totally logical if the promise of future success and lordship over the earth is given.

I mean, life was shit in the middle ages, but people practised the christian faith because they believed in a heaven (in the future, for them) in which the "God is good" statement would be shown to be true, although it was less simple on earth.

I see a direct analogy with the most popular faith in the world, at any rate.

Might be misunderstanding what Orzack is saying, but there's my two cents.

And if that's the case, victory over the omnicidal, unkillable ORO could represent victory over the world. So the Church is fighting the last and only real battle.

[Ozarck]

Every human believes mutually contradictory things, religious or not. Scientists do it as much as anyone else. But, again, When the universe is shown to be 'alien and hostile' or believed to be, pessimism and fatalism are the main human reactions - not optimism and self confidence. When scores are dying who militate against the "humans are the best" ideology, and millions who hold it are dying at the same time, then the 'humans are great' crowd becomes the anti-vaccine crowd, and is riduculed by the masses. There cognitive dissonance, and there is flatearth fanaticism.

Erm... the premise of a "humanity is great" religion succeeding is totally logical if the promise of future success and lordship over the earth is given.

I mean, life was shit in the middle ages, but people practised the christian faith because they believed in a heaven (in the future, for them) in which the "God is good" statement would be shown to be true, although it was less simple on earth.

I see a direct analogy with the most popular faith in the world, at any rate.

Might be misunderstanding what Orzack is saying, but there's my two cents.

And if that's the case, victory over the omnicidal, unkillable ORO could represent victory over the world. So the Church is fighting the last and only real battle.

I won't argue that life was heaven in the middle ages, but it was probably not worsethan it is in many societies today - better than in some war torm and famine struck places for most, probably. Sure life was shit during the plagues, but most people probably worked the land and lived their lives relatively unmolested (aside form the usual which is as prevalent today as then).

but, your example includes a faith in "God" - a power far outside of humanity itself. the argument is that faith in humanity is the religion. No god, no ouside source of power - humanity itself.

Every human believes mutually contradictory things, religious or not. Scientists do it as much as anyone else.

Perhaps, but the point I was trying to make is that it's possible for humans to have belief systems that are self-contradictory and sometimes even contradict the facts even as those blatantly in sight for all to see. So believing that humanity has the potential to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and is the rightful owner of the earth, even though right now it isn't on either front, doesn't seem extremely far-fetched, at least not to me.

But, again, When the universe is shown to be 'alien and hostile' or believed to be, pessimism and fatalism are the main human reactions - not optimism and self confidence.

I dunno about this. I can see where you're coming from, there's examples in history of oppressed people or people in generally shitty situations having a grim outlook on life and internalizing this, but on the other hand there's also plenty of examples of people rising up against their lot in life, despite others having died for that before them and the chance of success seeming very slim to non-existent. That there would be societies where 'pessimism and fatalism' would become the prevalent atmosphere I am certainly willing to believe, but saying that this is necessarily so seems like a bridge too far. Unless you have data or sources that prove otherwise? I'd honestly be interested in learning more in that case.

When scores are dying who militate against the "humans are the best" ideology, and millions who hold it are dying at the same time, then the 'humans are great' crowd becomes the anti-vaccine crowd, and is riduculed by the masses. There cognitive dissonance, and there is flatearth fanaticism.

I don't think we don't know enough about the world outside the holy city and ORO to really say how well different belief systems hold up under scrutiny. If pw says "every city until now had a different belief system and has fallen, while ours is the first to have a fighting chance" then it makes sense, if he says "other communities have different ways of handling the demon incursions, and some of those work equally well/better/good enough against the cursed city" then the situation becomes very different. All that we do seem to know for sure so far is that those who believe "gogo humanity #1" in this society are corrupted less easily than those who don't believe. That's a real, tangible reason why in this case, in this community, believing what the church says is better than not.

Of course, if there are other ways of attaining this 'extra protection' against corruption the situation might change, but as far as I know we haven't seen a lot of evidence for that yet, and even if that were the case the different communities might be separated enough to prevent knowledge of the alternative solutions from being communicated or spread.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

there is "possible" and there is "likely to be the majority view to the point that other viewpoints are disregarded." the first I can agree with, as my examples above. the second, that seems pretty far fetched. As for pessimism and fatalism being the likely reaction - well, during the centuries that Christianity was very young, pretty much every religion it encountered held to the idea that humans had no control - that even the gods were bound by fate. Greek mythology, Platonism, neo Platonism, Manicheaism, they mystery religions, even the Gnostic heresies within Christainity - all of them preached the idea that fate was out of human control. The Early church fathers spent considerable effort arguing against this, telling humans that teirchoices were real, and that theirchoices mattered. Jump ahead about eighteen centuries - hte early part of the 20th chentury saw a lot of optimism in human advancement thorough science. People believed that all problems could be solved through human progress. but the effects of the first and second world wars - notably the invention of nuclear bombs -had a dramatically negative effect on philosophy, giving rise to skepticism, doubt, and nihilistic despair. Hegel, Neitchze, Spinoza, Hume- these guys tended to pres the idea that authority was to be questioned, and that truth statements were to be tested, or that truth itself could not be known. Science fiction shifted to include a lot of Dystopian views of the future, and so on and so forth. And, if you like, consider the three great atheistic countries of the 20th century - Germany under Nazism, the USSR under Stalin, and China under Mao Tse Tung. note that human life tended to be rather cheap in these countries, and ...

Well, with Nazism you have a prime example of how "our country is great and we'll tolerate no exceptions" could work for a time, so there's that. I doubt many today would call that particular "faith" right, and it was instituted, maintained, and promoted through lies, fear, and murder, but it made a powerful force. So there ya go - the enemy of Oro could certainly have a chance with such a worldview. Not that the world wold be much better off if they won, though. likely, that City is already on it's way to becoming the next Oro, one way or the other.

As fpr the world outside our supposed holy city - well, is there no communication between cities? no commerce? no exchange of ideas? if there is not, then how would our people know anything about how their cities worked except through blind bpropaganda. Oaky, blind propaganda could keep the city unified and believing (along with other mehanisms of government control) but this city becomes a dystopia right fast, and I wouldn't describe the game as "A Holy City stands as the last bastion against a living city of sin." rather "A Dystopean city, united under one restrictive state church, encountere a monstrous Juggernaut and must fight for control and survival." One has the themes of good and evil, the other carries the themes of machinery and despair - survival for survival's sake.

[piecewise]

How about this, "Go humanity parenthesis because we are the chosen creations of god destined to retake the lands close parenthesis"



That way we keep the general feel of xenophobic zealousness but we can appeal to higher powers who love us because we are so great.

[Ozarck]

How about this, "Go humanity parenthesis because we are the chosen creations of god destined to retake the lands close parenthesis"



That way we keep the general feel of xenophobic zealousness but we can appeal to higher powers who love us because we are so great.

Piecewise, to me that is an acceptable compromise. But, I want you to know that it is probably completely unnecessary. 98% of the player base is likely unconcerned with the mechanics behind the religion of the holy city, and for me it's more the idea of holiness to begin with. I think I got everything off my chest now, and have reoriented myself to the game world with different expectations. Forgive me if I derailed the conversation - I studied human history, culture, leadership, language, communication, and religion, among other subjects, for ten years post secondary, so I got a little personally excited to play in a world - no to help develop (and possibly even help manage) a world - in which the themes of holiness and faith played a major role. That was kind a unrealistic of me. But thank you for taking it into consideration. I am glad I was heard. it means a lot to me.

[Egan_BW]

Personally, I would relegate all grimdarkness to ORO itself, and have the holy city not have any xenophobic zealousness. A community of people with different beliefs, that all work to some extent as Faith against ORO.
I feel like if the enemy is absolutely 100% evil, it makes sense that the players would be a little good.