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[Radio Controlled]

@Radio
Okay... this is kinda nitpicking, but you really just posted an alternative health system.  The system you posted isn't mutually exclusive with the card system, and would actually work pretty well with it.  All you did was make health more complicated, and remove the card system for attacks and other combat actions.

Like I said, that was made in like 5 minutes to demonstrate the core idea (multiple effects can be rolled up into 1 or a few numbers that can easily be compared to determine combat outcome). I suppose the max defense functions as a sort of hp, but it could be done away with on favor of a normal hp system, or chunky salsa, or only 1 defense value, or something else. The core idea stands, far as I can see.

@Paris
I think this kinda misses the point of Radio's complaints.  If I understand him correctly, he wants creativity to be rewarded, and to not feel like his actions are completely limited to what appears on premade cards.  This is why I suggested environmental effects be dictated by a character's movement; it allows people to use effects on the fly, as opportunity presents itself.

True, that is probably the core element here, along with not being restricted to the imagination of the person/people making the cards. Say a monster is going to escape to alert his friends, we have no ranged weapon ammo available and our fast char is down for the count. In desperation, I might try to do something unconventional and just throw my longsword at the thing and hope against hope it strikes true. A long shot, probably at a decent penalty, but at least I have the option to try stuff like this. In the card system, I couldn't do this unless someone made a card for it, and even then I probably wouldn't take it during mission prep because the amount of cards is limited and it's such a circumstantial thing. I guess something like an "unconventional attack" card(s) could be devised to account for it, but those cards would be empty catch-all cards and kinda go against the spirit of the system, where everything is well defined and predictable/reliable.

Another element is the fact that I think a card system is less immersive, but that's a more minor point.

Player creativity and a reliable and complex combat system seem mutually exclusive, and the latter seems to be what PW desires. vOv?

The way I see it it's more of a sliding scale between the two, and we're trying to find an optimal balance.

I just want something that people can have fun with, and that won't slow the game down too much so that we can actually get people out and back quickly enough to make our 5 man teams a not insurmountable bottle neck.

PW, could you perhaps describe to us how you expect/desire the average expedition to go, in terms of "first X turns faffing about, then some 3-ish turn combat, then more faffing, some more combat of about Y turns on average, whole affair should be over in Z turns, then the next party leaves".

[4]

Can't wait for more of this discussion.

[syvarris]

@Radio

I actually do like your defense system, and I wouldn't be unhappy if it were used with the card system.  I was more pointing out that it didn't seem to help your side at all--it's just a minor tweak of one small aspect of the system, rather than an overhaul, like the rest of your post seemed to imply.  Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

Anyway, I think it's a decent system to use if the current one is too cumbersome for PW (IMO, he's the only person that should care about complexity--I doubt there will be many players who dislike increased HP granularity).  However, if the current system isn't too cumbersome for him, it should be used instead, because it allows for more interesting tactics and situations; in the current system, you can target someone's leg to cripple them, or their arm to weaken them.


As for your problems with the card system... well, we've already been over it.  My opinion is that the flaws you list are systemic, and lesser than the flaws with a freeform system.  As I've said before, I think a freeform system would be less interesting and have much simpler gameplay, but I also imagine it would have more roleplaying and be more flavorful.  I value the former more (which is why I've never joined Infinite Heavens or Poison), while others value the latter more.  *shrug*

A second, probably more important concern, is time.  On one hand, a freeform system has less complexity during each turn, so more turns can be run in quick succession without overworking PW.  On the other hand... I think a defined system is much easier to predict and plan within, so more turns can be run without the players feeling disconnected with their characters.


...Maybe this could be another vote thing?  The argument's started to repeat, so I think we seem to have done as much discussion as is useful.  The best tiebreaker under this situation would be to just ask people whether they prefer a crunchy or flavory system.

[piecewise]

Was the corruption mechanic a "carrot and stick" (well, stick) feature to drive players on then?

Not sure what you're asking. I fully intend to still have it, I'm just trying to get the basics figured out so I can integrate it.

For instance in the card system I'd probably have the special moves drain faith to use. I don't think it would be hard to meld it with any system really.

PW, could you perhaps describe to us how you expect/desire the average expedition to go, in terms of "first X turns faffing about, then some 3-ish turn combat, then more faffing, some more combat of about Y turns on average, whole affair should be over in Z turns, then the next party leaves".

The game is so far set up a lot like the old Perplexicon part 2; you've got a level with stuff in it, you've got a boss, you've got random encounters and scripted encounters and secret passages and such like that. Much more dungeon crawly than ER's open world faffing around; still freedom to go where you want, but it manifests more as choosing a path rather than just wandering off. So you might spend a turn or two in each "room" maybe 3 if you really wanna look around, and then move on to the next. And you move through until you get combat, which should take 3 turns at most to do. One of the driving forces of ending the expedition and returning will be fatigue from characters being injured, dying or losing faith. Getting through one level would probably take several tries, pushing in, exploring, fighting, limping back, sending out the next team.

What I want is a system that allows players to have various special abilities and use them reasonably and reactively in combat without combat taking more than a few turns at most. In my mind that can't be done without either having some manner of automation (ie multiple turns in one turn) or having the system be so brutal that one or two hits is fatal. Which is fine with me, honestly, but I'm not sure players would be happy with it.

[Ozarck]

simplify charcter creation for the first tier characters, ahve people list ten characters, in order of use. two to three hits is fatal, people burn through their first set of tier one characters, earn a tier two slot. save it or use it right away. either way, get ten new tier one characters, burn through them. eventually, after gaining and using, oh, five to ten tier twos, get a tier three slot. tier two might have a more complex fight with cards and whatnot, while tier one is strictly rapid fire and hgh death. tier three might have a little more complexity yet.

[Radio Controlled]

At this point I think that it'd be best for pw to just choose something he feels comfortable with and just run with that. Maybe do a few more tests of the other systems/variations if needed to get a better view on the options. I don't know voting will get us the best solution, since whatever system we prefer might not be the funnest/easiest for pw to work with, and in the end he'll still be the bottleneck. So better just pick whatever seems best to you personally to gm with, pw. Whatever you choose, there'll be people willing to play ball.

[Egan_BW]

I would prefer not to have certain characters elevated above others by "birth", even if evey player has the same opportunity. You are all cannon fodder, and the only way to succeed is to be very lucky, and maybe have some stratagy.

[NJW2000]

So how about the only way to get a tier two character is to have a tier one survive?

[Egan_BW]

...Only if the t2 is the same person as the t1.

[piecewise]

I don't like the idea of having different tiers of characters strictly from the mechanical sense that it means having multiple systems. And it brings up the problem of what happens when multiteired groups fight together.

I'm gonna try and think on a quick via brutal system and see what I can get and then we'll try it out. See what people think. What it in general will be is
1. Low HP, high damage
2. Offense oriented
3. Designed in such a way that mutual misses don't happen. Someone is always being hit.

[piecewise]

Characters roll d6. Winner does their roll in damage.

Players have 10 HP.

Get wrecked.

[NJW2000]

Characters roll d6. Winner does their roll in damage.

Players have 10 HP.

Get wrecked.

You're missing the complexity element. But that doesn't matter if you make the system really arcane and tell noone.

[piecewise]

Characters roll d6. Winner does their roll in damage.

Players have 10 HP.

Get wrecked.

You're missing the complexity element. But that doesn't matter if you make the system really arcane and tell noone.

Nah, I was joking. I'm still thinking

[Egan_BW]

Elaboration on that system:
Players get a d4, low-level monsters start with at least d6. Players can spend faith to increase the number of sides, one side per point spent. Players have 3 hp, which can be raised to 5 hp with heavy armor, at the cost of lowering your attack die to d3. Monsters start with 5 hp, and can be raised to 12 hp with light armor with no encumberence. Players start with 10 faith, and gain one for each kill, but can't regain them any other way. Also, faith gained this way slowly corrupts them.

None of this information is visible to players. They can only make descriptive actions to attack and cannot see exactly how much faith they have or choose exactly how much faith to spend, instead the GM chooses based on the context of the action. In addition, the GM can choose to give dice bonuses to players and monsters according to the situation.

I call it X-ORO.

[NJW2000]

Yes, a simple system like that would be fine.

The important thing is to say something like:

"This uses a mostly hidden tiered experience system with multiple n-sided dice for attack and defense, and takes environmental bonuses and multipliers into account, while enemies attack according to algorithmic from a random hand from a handcrafted premade deck of cards, attacks taking into accoun risk, poise, damage, weapon range and positioning, defence taking into account reaction, armour level, endurance, poise, agility and faith, while multiple other factors become invovled or uninvolved due to situational modifiers."

As long as you don't tell people what the real system is, everyone's happy.