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[RAM]

Counter points:

 1) Their main design alst turn was to target our shipping. Likley they will continue with this trend. Development of these systems on the ma will help us protect our naval forces from them in future.

 2) The enemy utilizes air transportation over naval units, and, again, appear to be focusing on air power, which submarines cannot assist with at this time, and are actually the most vulnerable to.

 3) The time we have also needs to fill other gaps that we have. The ma will hopefully be able to fill in the role as artillery.

 4) There is no evidence that damaging the foe quickly will have a obvious effect on national morale, which currently appears to be fine, or, if it does, that it will boost our military growth by an appreciable amount.

 Also, on another note, morals and morale are slightly different things.

1)Design bureaus tend to be unstable. They are unlikely to make a thing if they think that they already have that thing.

 2) A slow(I could be wrong, but it seems doubtful that you can elegantly replace 1 50mm with 2 90mms) AA tank is not going to hamper air transports unless it manages some insane behind-enemy-lines manoeuvre or is defending a landing site, for which the bumblebee is already basically qualified.

 3) It would certainly be nice to have a heavy-weapons platform to use against ground targets, but I am not certain that it will do anything that the T-25 does not do already.

 4) Yeah, submarines are not exactly going to be public tourist attractions, and generally, well, you want to be secretive with them. But I am not really clear on how any of our ideas can attract new recruits. It isn't like we can take kids for a ride in the back of an A.P.C., or build a gun that shoots fireworks, or build an aeroplane that can be retrofitted to shoot tee-shirts at an audience as it circles overhead...

Don't get me wrong, I would really like to have the MA on our team, but it just doesn't seem to fit in a hole that we need filled right now.

[Aseaheru]

 They arent, are they? However, their current bombers are either slow and thus vulnerable, or have next to no range but can evade fire from bumblebees. It stands to reason that they are going to work on a better aircraft for bombing, one with the range of their heavy bombers/transports and the speed of the jet.

 Not saying that it would be that useful against their transports. Just saying that the sub will have even less use against them.
 As for the replacement of the gun, well, new turret with next to no armor. Would have to happen anyways, the standard turret for the T25 would not have the necessary elevation or space, while we also wont need armor that can handle a tank on the Ma. The use of the T25s chassis is mostly for its drivetrain and associated components, and hopefully easing logistics slightly.

 Indirect fire support. We got none and need some.

 
 Irdirect fire needs a hand, and it was noted that the first group that they attacked had a few bumblebees and that they where unable to get the jets. And while we will need a sub at some point in future, at the moment they have hardly any navy to speak of. Better to see what they design for that and possibly work in a system for, I dunno, underwater deployed missiles for hitting aircraft?

[piratejoe]

I just felt to point this out,dropping a crate of anything from an aircraft is generally a bad idea,if we take out there naval shipping then they would be unable to ship there new tank or whatever they are making to the field,Java is also not exactly a rolling field,if they had to rely on aircraft to send everything chances are a lot of it will be damaged when it lands,destroyed by faulty parachutes or be so inaccurate it lands far behind the feds lines or even in the hands of java. Speaking of,if they captured an airstrip the last turn would have said so right? And they don't even have the technology to drop a crate of,say ammo from a plane with a parachute.

[Aseaheru]

 I have a feeling that airfields are abstracted right now.

 And, again, better to hold off slightly to see what we can do and to make something more capable.

[piratejoe]

Considering they made a aircraft they are probably going to make a tank/other vehicle or a ship along with a gun or other infantry weapon,so subs will stop them from getting those vehicles to the island of java as well as slow there transport to the island also if you have to travel across the water knowing somewhere out there that there is a sub that might blow you out of the water and there is nothing you or your friends can do about it is very demoralizing because they don't have depth charges and the fact they did take a dock over after all so they will probably be landing troops with ships more then aircraft now.

[Aseaheru]

 Just reading that made me need to catch my breath...


 Anyways, again, I would rather hold off on designing a sub untill we can fit in a few more systems to keep it alive. Seeing if we can get some form of anti-air missile we can put on it and possibly launch underwater would be useful. So would radar, which we dont have as a tech yet and I am working to ease us into, and active/passive sonar systems. Possibly some form of air independent propulsion.

[stabbymcstabstab]

Yeah we don't have sonar do we? We might want to design a radar or sonar to fit into it to make survivable. (sonar so it can navigate under water, radar to avoid aircraft.)

[RAM]

To me, the two biggest issues with the submarine are A: we can use it to attack the Mals, and B: we would use it to attack the Mals=war...

I suppose we could use it to scout and secure landing sites and siege islands...

[Kot]

So... since we can't agree, maybe we could come up with "something" else? Like, dunno, what would we also want? Maybe... ROCKETS! Or heavy duty cargo ships. Or basically anything.

[piratejoe]

Kot if you make a rocket i will vote for it if we never make up our minds.

[Aseaheru]

Collectively or independently? Because I know my mind is made up.

[piratejoe]

Okay heres a list of things we need to make
1Radar
2Sonar
3Rockets and missiles
4Submarines
5Better landing craft
6Better guns
7Ship guns
8Better AA
9Aircraft
10Ships like destroyers and cruisers.

So,lets work on something simple we can all agree on,how about we make the aa you want so badly and a radar to detect aircraft,does this sound like a good plan?

[Kot]

Radar is a step towards guided missiles, so...

[piratejoe]

Okay lets call the radar the Sanjuni,it will be a useful peace of equipment for ever until we take the time to make a new radar.

[Aseaheru]

 The ma helps with two, possibly three, of the items on that list.

 Which does not include indirect fire or infantry heavy weapons... Or a fair deal of things, like quick infantry transport and the like.

 Anyways, heres the things I think we need sooner rather than later:
-Better AA, aircraft, vehicular and infantry (Talking gun, radar guided missiles, infrared vehicular based missiles, manpads)
-Infantry portable AT (ATGMs, dumbfire rockets)
-Infantry support weapons (grenades and launchers for them)
-Radar
-long endurance aircraft (turboprops, which can be used for turboshafts in helis), namley AWACS, transports, possible gunships, definite sub hunters
-jet aircraft
-Fixing the landing craft
-Fixing our rifle yet again (seriously, that friggin fire selector and those integral suppressors...)
-Indirect fire pieces (Mortars and stuff on vehicles)
-helicopters, transport, gunships, ship-based
-torpedoes for subs, aircraft, helis, etc
-cruise missiles, including sub-launched
-sonar (dipped, dropped, in vessel)
-full scale naval vessels, potentially equipped with turrets from the Ma
-autocannons (probably gast principle, for helis, fighters, ships, saturation AA)

-ninja edit-

Joe, we can design one thing this turn. I would rather not spend all of our effort on something that cant do any damage at all. Hence why the Ma has a radar system in addition to normal targeting systems.