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[Ghoul]

I've been playing DF now for a few years - but that being said I haven't played for half as long as most people on this forum. But the one thing that has struck me as more of a problem for myself since the beginning is not bugs or the lack of features, but rather the fact that what is there sometimes isn't functional, or at least reasonable as part of the gameplay.

Take trading for example - I can put up with having to choose every single little thing I want to sell or not, far more than I can by the fact that trap components are valued through the roof. Although I could simply avoid buying them, I also am now restricted, although be it by myself, from exploiting this and making my fortress simply pump out wooden corkscrews and the like.

Another example is the exploitation of smelting metal things back down and then making them again - giving you a net gain of metal bars. I know I simply can not do it if I prefer, but it isn't right, and would be extremely easy to fix.

Others I know of include:
Destroying Trade Depots to steal all merchant goods
Dwarven water reactors
Infinite water in adventure mode (dropping 1/3 of water from your waterskin and picking it up fills it completely)
Trying to build constructions in unexplored areas will show you the caverns
Danger rooms (although maybe intentional behaviour)
Atom smashers (I'm sure this one isn't)
Quantum stock piles (dropping things from above allows you to stack an infinite pile of stuff)

None of these are 'bugs', and all can be avoided by simply deciding not to do it, but many would be very quick to fix (in theory) and in my mind would be a good solid improvement for the gameplay of DF.

(If you can think of any more exploits, please do comment below and I'll add them to the list)

[letsdance]

undestroyable buildings: mostly drawbridges but also workshops built over an open tile the right way.

the problem is, if all those things were fixed, i think DF wouldn't be more enjoyable. for example, it's too easy to wall yourself in, but if enemies could dig into your fortress, you'd die too fast.

the last game i put the following restrictions on me, in an ice biome without soil or water:

• no growing underground crops
  no trading stone crafts
  no drawbridges
  not stealing goods from traders in any way
  none of the other things you mentioned
  

still it was quite easy. it will always be easy when you know the game too well. i'd like to have a better challenge too but i don't see DF ever getting there. development cleary goes more towards people who just like building a fortress and watching it. several things have become alot easier for no obvious reason (getting wood for example), rather than increasing the challenge. we got poems and libraries instead of more cunning enemies.

[Shonai_Dweller]

The thing is, some of these, like trading, are due to be replaced entirely. Why waste time 'balancing' a non-game breaking, non-crashing bug when there's a simple workaround (don't exploit it). It'd all have to be balanced again when it's replaced anyway.

[letsdance]

are due to be replaced

you mean "are eventually going to be repaced, sometimes, probably before version 1.0"

if they get replaced that would be a good fix of course, but the focus seems to be adding new stuff instead of improving existing things.

it would benefit the game more to fix bugs and improve usability instead of adding even more features.

(note the date.) little has changed since then.

[Ghoul]

I do agree, partially, that it would take far more time to fix exploits based on how you play, such as walling yourself in, but conversely I imagine it would take very little to simply change some of the values on things like the value of trap components, or water reactors.

The reason I made the thread was in the hope that, although I realise the game is not finished, far from it, a few small fixes, a tiny bit of balancing between new additions, would go a long way, at least in my mind, because as letsdance said, we may be waiting some time for a release to overhaul things completely - in the meantime, people are playing it for fun and as a challenge.

I was also interested to see how other people played - and what they consider to exploits - for example, if I limited myself to above ground crops, my dwarves would probably starve to death in the first year, as soon as all the fish ran dry...

[Ghoul]

no trading stone crafts

Also, what on earth do you trade with the elves?!

[pikachu17]

thanks for giving me a nice list of exploits. I'm going to try these

[Sutremaine]

no trading stone crafts

Also, what on earth do you trade with the elves?!

Meals, bone crafts, spare animals, green glass gems / crafts, anything made of metal or leather or stone (most things are really heavy, but cabochons are a fine way of chewing through spare rock and training a different skill), old clothes...

[Niddhoger]

I honestly don't see how trading stone crafts is on your restricted list when prepared meals aren't.  Especially now that everyone can wear/claim these, they do serve a "purpose." 

Also, the reason why people might not like this, is that they are too used to exploiting these "features."  In particular, the infinite metal exploit makes me a little sick.  You might was well just use DFHack to spawn you a load of steel.  Otherwise, you can start with 1 bar and wind up with 1,000,000+ while TRAINING your dwarves at the same time.  It really is redonkulous and crazy.  At least with prices we can shrug and mumble and market values, and with QSP you can say that items can stack/the tiles are actually several cubic meters...

[SixOfSpades]

Personally, I would argue in favor of atom-smashing. I believe it's the least memory-intensive way of getting rid of stuff that there is: Even if you sell an item to a merchant or drop it down a volcano, the game still remembers what happens to it, whereas if you smash it, it's just gone. Also, until composting (or whatever) gets implemented, it's best to have a convenient way to destroy biodegradable items like nervous tissue. Sure, old clothes will slowly decay if you leave them on a refuse pile, but really, what's the harm in just lowering a drawbridge on them & getting it over with?

As long as you're not using the exploit as an exploit, like you're not using atom-smashers to safely obliterate rooms full of clowns, then there's no problem.

[Libash_Thunderhead]

By the way, I think clowns are usually immune to bridges due to their size.
----------------------------
I think Niddhoger is right.There are many things you can mass produce, just some are more valuable than others. To fix this we'll need an economy system, more or less, like the cavaran refused to buy your roasts at a high price if you have sold too many.

I don't use QSP anymore, not because I don't like it, just I'm too lazy to set up a mine cart route.

[letsdance]

if I limited myself to above ground crops, my dwarves would probably starve to death in the first year, as soon as all the fish ran dry...

i had no water, therefore no fish i had sparse wildlife to hunt, and the caves to hunt and gather. i mainly did this so that i must use the caves.

no trading stone crafts

Also, what on earth do you trade with the elves?!

bone crafts, gems and spoils from goblin attacks. but the only thing i needed from elves was wood and that's very cheap.

I honestly don't see how trading stone crafts is on your restricted list when prepared meals aren't.

getting prepared meals isn't that easy without farming... i had also reduced cooking exp to 30% resulting in less valuable meals. i considered restricting meal trades, but i wanted to have something on my side as well =) later when i had enough food to trade meals i also had enough bones to trade decorated bone crafts in large quantities (my source income was animals, hunted or traded for). so it didn't matter unless i forbid those, too. besides, there's not much that you really need to trade for.

By the way, I think clowns are usually immune to bridges due to their size.

you cannot smash them, but you can keep them out easily. keeping titans/forgotten beasts out is a lot harder if you cannot seal off your fortress by switching a lever. especially using my restrictions that required me to trade or use the caves to survive. i did it by building walls but that's alot slower and riskier.

atom smasher to destroy garbage is no exploit IMO, but i usually have no need for it either.

[Sutremaine]

Also, the reason why people might not like this, is that they are too used to exploiting these "features."  In particular, the infinite metal exploit makes me a little sick.  You might was well just use DFHack to spawn you a load of steel.  Otherwise, you can start with 1 bar and wind up with 1,000,000+ while TRAINING your dwarves at the same time.

It does take game time and dwarfpower to do it that way.

You could also take the time yourself and use the coin trick to get 500 individual coins to melt, but that only trains Furnace Operator, which is pretty easy to train anyway.

[cochramd]

Also, the reason why people might not like this, is that they are too used to exploiting these "features."  In particular, the infinite metal exploit makes me a little sick.  You might was well just use DFHack to spawn you a load of steel.  Otherwise, you can start with 1 bar and wind up with 1,000,000+ while TRAINING your dwarves at the same time.

It does take game time and dwarfpower to do it that way.

This. It takes a LOT of time and dwarfpower. I only use it when training weaponsmiths and armorsmiths or when trying to generate a large amount of masterwork weapons, armor or trap components. If you're not already doing one of those things, then it's just not worth your time unless you're lacking flux or a key ore.

[SixOfSpades]

. . . To fix this we'll need an economy system, more or less, like the cavaran refused to buy your roasts at a high price if you have sold too many.

There are actually two problems with selling roasts, only one of which is an exploit, and has to do with DF's value modifier for decorated goods.

You have some leather waterskins? Meh.
You have some cut gems? Eh, they're okay, I guess.
You put the gems ONTO the waterskins? OMG they're so beautiful I must have them I'll trade you my left arm for them take what you want from my caravan pleaseprettyplease.

The fact that the combination of two items has a value several times more than the sum of its parts is (arguably) the major cause of such lopsided exchanges at the Trade Depot. The modifier is so high that it completely dominates all considerations of worth--when a zinc ring studded with a chunk of pyrite stands a real risk of being worth more than a diamond, players really have to think about how to balance realism vs. abuse. And, of course, when you slap multiple decorations onto an item (which is precisely how stews and roasts are codes), the exorbitant cost only multiplies.

The other problem with roasts is that, realistically, caravans shouldn't buy any food AT ALL except cheese and booze--how, exactly, is cooked fish going to stay edible through the merchants' trip back to their home settlement, or even to the next town?