Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[AbstractTraitorHero]

Don't worry it's literally 1:10 am for me people say really stupid things when their tired if you have an argument in the morning do it and I'll be happy to dispute you.

[Silthuri]

Was gonna post anyway but saw the prod. I do have good news though: I made it on the mock trial team! ^_^

But anyways... back to mafia stuff.
Webadict:

Yeah, that's right. I'm asking why you DIDN'T vote a town player. Why did you believe he wasn't scum? It seems odd, really. He made a scummy series of plays. His behavior was suspicious. And yet, you didn't vote him, right?

This seems a bit hypocritical. If I recall correctly, your reason for voting them was that they were somewhat scummy. I also find that your theory that the scum are more likely among those not voting for the townie as a bit too much of WIFOM for my tastes. While I do agree that it's possible for the scum to be among that number, that should not be a focus. While this may simply be a difference in play styles, it still seems kinda off to me.

I'd also like to point out that after your initial vote on snow dwarf, you kept pushing at him, despite your only reasons being as flimsy as they were. You caught someone and you started tunneling. Again, may be a difference in play styles, but I still find it pretty darn suspicious. Especially when others were apparently acting suspicious as well.

[doomchild]

Here's a list of whom voted for snow dwarf, in order so far as I can tell:
Gentlefish, webadict, AbstractTraitorHero, doomchild, Persus13

Time to hunt for the bandwagoniers!

DoomChild:
You've had reasoned suspicions for snow, and voted him when he offered the idea that maybe he -was- mafia. Your vote -seems- right, but if I take a page out of Hector's book () that does make me feel a little uncomfortable. Do you think it's likely that someone whom voted for snow dwarf is mafia? How do you plan on rooting them out?

First off, I think calling all of the votes on snow dwarf a bandwagon is an indirect attack.  Some people might have been bandwagoning, but people choosing independently to vote for the same target is not a bandwagon.  A part of why I took a while to finally put my vote down was because I knew that I would get accused of hopping on the bandwagon, when in fact I had legitimate suspicions.

Secondly, this whole "that seems right, and therefore it must be scummy" thing has me really confused.  So, I'm being attacked for following up on what I and others perceive as scummy behavior?  That mindset seems to imply that townies should play their cards close to the vest, which I think is a big mistake.  The mafia has the advantage when nobody acts openly, because suspicion brews fast and hot in that kind of environment.

Finally, coming from a purely statistical point of view, it seems reasonably likely to me that at least one scum was in the list of snow dwarf voters.  We know Persus13 was town, so that leaves the other 4.  I feel like I've been completely open and honest about why I was suspicious of snow dwarf, and I think the only way to make any headway on finding out if there is a scum in the list is for everybody else to do the same.

Gentlefish, in case it wasn't obvious, I was hoping for some answers to this stuff, particularly the "seems right" part.

[webadict]

Was gonna post anyway but saw the prod. I do have good news though: I made it on the mock trial team! ^_^

But anyways... back to mafia stuff.
Webadict:

Yeah, that's right. I'm asking why you DIDN'T vote a town player. Why did you believe he wasn't scum? It seems odd, really. He made a scummy series of plays. His behavior was suspicious. And yet, you didn't vote him, right?

This seems a bit hypocritical. If I recall correctly, your reason for voting them was that they were somewhat scummy. I also find that your theory that the scum are more likely among those not voting for the townie as a bit too much of WIFOM for my tastes. While I do agree that it's possible for the scum to be among that number, that should not be a focus. While this may simply be a difference in play styles, it still seems kinda off to me.

I'd also like to point out that after your initial vote on snow dwarf, you kept pushing at him, despite your only reasons being as flimsy as they were. You caught someone and you started tunneling. Again, may be a difference in play styles, but I still find it pretty darn suspicious. Especially when others were apparently acting suspicious as well.

You can claim WIFOM, but I'm gonna lay down some straight facts. We have, what, like 50 beginner games to use? Wanna take a guess how many first Day Townie lynches had scum on them?

Let's see how far we can get...
LVIII: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Town). (2 Townies, 1 Scum voting otherwise)
LVII: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Town). (3 Townies, 1 Townie and 1 Scum voting otherwise)
LVI: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Mafia). (2 Townies, 2 Townies voting otherwise)
LV: Yes, 1 Scum voted the first Lynch (Town). (4 Townies and 1 Scum, 1 Scum and 3 Town voting otherwise) <-- First instance of scum voting for the first lynch, but definitely not both.
LIV: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynch at all (Town). (2 Townies, 1 Townie voted otherwise)
LIII: Yes, 1 Scum voted the first Lynchee (Town). (5 Townies and 1 Scum, 2 Townies voting otherwise) <-- Second instance of scum voting for the first lynch, but still not both.
LII: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Town). (3 Townies, 1 Townie and 2 Scum voting otherwise)
LI: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Town). (4 Townies, 2 Townies and 1 Scum voting otherwise)
L: Yes, 1 Scum voted the first Lynchee (Town). (2 Townies and 1 Scum, 3 Townies voting otherwise)
And this is the point where I got bored doing research.

I could probably do this for every game and I guarantee we will find, at a MAXIMUM, 1 game where both scum voted for the first Lynch. And honestly, I highly doubt that even exists. It's about a 10% chance of existing, which considering that this is for all BMs, is a really good guess.

You have to realize at some point that there are recurring patterns in this game. They keep happening for a reason. Scum don't want to associate with each other, which is what is fundamentally different from Town. They KNOW who their teammates are. That's why their actions are affected.

So, the only way this would change would be if I did it. Nobody else is brave enough to do it, and I'm known for Refuge in Audacity, so that's pretty much out of the question here (from my point of view.) I am about 99% certain that this case is the same. Claim WIFOM all you want, but if you deny my point has merit, then you're either stupid and purposefully ignoring the obvious, or you believe I'm manipulating you and refuse to believe it. I can't argue the second point, since there's no point. If you think I'm lying, then you have literally zero idea how I play this game as Town or Scum.

It's really very simple too: It's easier to avoid collusion if you don't interact with your scumbuddy. I'm going to guess that I've done this most of the time. Most people do. It's a natural defense mechanism. It's not really hard to understand, and yet every time the patterns exist, I guarantee someone says, "No, that doesn't happen, insignificant data points, blah blah, I have no idea how stats work."

So, if you want to vote based on pure numbers, that's the best solution. Not that you should, but if you're going to blame the people that lynched the first lynched person, they're more likely to be Town than anyone else is.

I voted snow dwarf because I wanted to. Got a problem with that? He was acting suspicious, he got voted, he flipped out in a suspicious manner, he stayed voted. I don't know if you saw that stuff he did, but that's the stuff that gets you lynched. And he got lynched. I warned him. Simple as that. If you want remorse, I have none. I did what I do, what I have to do: I lynched someone I found scummy.

If you mind me asking, who else was acting suspicious, if you believe I should've questioned someone else?

Response to webadict's post in which he voted me.

Spoiler: Wall of Text (click to show/hide)

You're right, I don't know he's Town, but I'm way more sure he's town than you are, so if you're planning to vote and lynch him, you better believe I'm not going to screw around and let you do it. I'm not upset over being wrong on snow child. I figured it was a distinct possibility. What he did would've warranted the same response in a normal game. I fail to see the issue. Are you going to use that against me?

My issue with your read on snow dwarf stems from the fact you just arbitrarily decided that snow dwarf was scum and ATH was town, like this. From what I saw, there was no qualitative difference in their posts before you started interacting with them.

Any more passive attacks you want to make before you get them all out? I'll make 'em for you: You haven't posted anything relevant since the Day started; you're experienced yet you lynched a townie; you're buddying with ATH; you're chainsaw defending ATH; you're not scumhunting; you're not creating a useful environment for new players to learn. Am I missing any?

You forgot the huge defensiveness to what you term "indirect attacks" and apparently not paying attention to the game, else you'd be able to answer all the questions you've asked me, and not mix up two of the players (coming later)

Two of the things you pointed out I wouldn't have thought of as ammunition to use against someone, specifically the learning environment one and the experienced but town lynch ones, but I guess I appreciate the fullness of your self-read.

I don't understand how I'm less suspicious than ATH at this point, right? Here, I'll help you out.

If you'll permit me to be aghast: how in the name of the great flying fuck of Turkish Cyprus are you more suspicious than ATH!?

ATH spent a page throwing nonsense arguments at me, after which he basically said to everyone to ignore it 'cause it was all bullshit! How the fuck is that helpful to town? How the fuck will that help us find scum?

hector13
hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13 hector13

Once was enough, methinks.

I could only hope there was some myth about saying my name 13 times. Alas...

Yeah, now what? You gonna vote me yet? Or were you just waiting for this, so that you could claim OMGUS without having to actually, you know, vote me. I can believe it, but the issue is that if you want ammo against me, it's typically better if you use it before I do. You don't have to like it, but it's true. I'm not lying because I don't have to lie. There's nothing for me to lie about.

Would you like some cheese with your wine, sir? I recommend the stilton.

Does that make me your enemy?

G'on then. I'd like you to point out the post(s) where I said I thought you were scum.

Look, my goal is two things: To teach people how to play (in the sick, twisted way that I do), and to win. I don't expect you to play like I do. In fact, I suggest against it. But, if you think ATH is scum, then I will vote you. I will vote you because I believe you're wrong on purpose. You're using snow dwarf against me, when it was very clearly a viable lynch. You're making a number of passive attacks against me, but you're refusing to vote me. You're not even FoSing me. It's uncanny how you're avoiding a direct assault.

Well... I'm putting pressure on you, but can you think of any reasons I might not be voting for you?

Hint: the response above and the second below this quote might clue you in.

I want you to think very clearly about your statistics: 1 in 4 of those players are scum according to you. If that's true, then what about the people that didn't vote snow dwarf? Are they 1 in 3? In fact, the chance for anyone to be scum is 2 in 8, correct?

But that's not true.

The chance for anyone to be scum is 2 in 7. You always assume you're town. So, if you believe that one person in that list is scum, then what are the chances that scum avoided a bandwagon on Town? I find it more likely to avoid trying to lynch a Townie: The essence of the Trying Too Hard To Look Town scumtell. And you know, it usually IS a nulltell, but for beginners, it has outstanding merit. So, it's actually more likely that one of the three people who DIDN'T vote snow dwarf is scum.

Doomchild said this, not me.

I don't like using statistics because a) they don't tell you anything useful and b) they can be twisted to say whatever you want them to say.

... You didn't vote snow dwarf, did you?

Why not?

Yeah, that's right. I'm asking why you DIDN'T vote a town player. Why did you believe he wasn't scum? It seems odd, really. He made a scummy series of plays. His behavior was suspicious. And yet, you didn't vote him, right?

Why not?

'cause I felt he wasn't scum/was town. /funny

Alternatively, I was voting someone I thought was scummier (Gentlefish) and had another person I would've been voting (EP) had I not been voting for them. Snow dwarf struck me as flailing n00b, which OSG (the scum IC) probably wouldn't let him get away with. This didn't preclude him from being scum, nor did it preclude him from being town. I did allude to this at the time.

Ugh, why do people Spoiler their answers. All it does is minimize your impact on the game by basically forcing people to find your input...

One, you're accusing ATH of similar things that I myself am doing, but I don't get the same type of scrutiny. I find it unfair and rightly insulting. You ask me what made snow dwarf more susicious than others, but you don't seem to have the same care for why I am not more suspicious than ATH. I'm not really asking for answers anyway, I'm more just trying to get you to do something. But what am I supposed to say? "Do something." Well, that never works out well.

Anyway, back to my point, the issue isn't that you believe I'm scum. It's the opposite. You clearly DO NOT believe I'm scum. And yet, you will make indirect attacks against me, point out I'm suspicious, but you won't just straight up fight me. I bet I could avoid answering any of your questions and you wouldn't do anything out of fear. It's not even really worth my time at this point, since you're clearly not going to use the information, right?

And you're post says:

I've basically said everything I think I can say today. Kinda stuck between EP and Gentlefish for my vote, but nobody else is going for it as a result of snow dwarf.

Can't say I'm against the lynch, though... Not enough for it to add my vote to the wagon though.

That you're not against the lynch. So, you felt like he was scum somewhat, right? If you're not against the vote, then you either watched a newbie get lynched and did nothing, thought he was scum and was okay with the lynch, like your post seems to indicate with your seemingly whitewashing your own complicity in the lynching, or you lied, which is a great trait we look for in town players, as it only makes you look suspicious, which it clearly does.

Now that I've posted, mod, I will return back to where I was, because Mafia over the weekend is not my thing.

[doomchild]

While I'm waiting on Gentlefish to respond to my post, I've got a question for ATH:

Why, exactly, did you vote for snow dwarf?  What, specifically did you find scummy?  How did it make you feel?  Be as specific as possible.

[webadict]

While I'm waiting on Gentlefish to respond to my post, I've got a question for ATH:

Why, exactly, did you vote for snow dwarf?  What, specifically did you find scummy?  How did it make you feel?  Be as specific as possible.

I voted him because he was the one that stood out. That is as specific as it gets. Not really sure how this is a difficult concept, but it appears I have entered into the Master Level English courses, where I must make sure my sources are properly cited for the dissertation that I'm writing about how I voted someone that was scummy and then proceeded to act more scummy after being voted.

All I did was click on the game while it was playing before I had joined, saw a post from snow dwarf, looked later and saw that there were replacements needed, joined in as a replacement, recalled my earlier recollection of a suspicious post, thought it was suspicious enough to throw a vote on considering I'm too lazy to look back at what could hardly be called progress, and then used the resounding amount of suspicious behavior that he exhibited as proof.

This is like some sort of foreign language, though. We don't even have hammers, how are you guys so scared of votes. This isn't rocket science. It's more like sociology. But the 101 class, where you only get points off for not showing up.

[hector13]

webadict

If you are acting as scummily as you say, particularly relative to ATH, how come nobody is voting for you, and 4 people are voting for ATH?

Of those 4 people, why am I so special that I deserve individual attention over my vote of ATH?

You say I'm accusing ATH of similar things that you've done, so could you point out where you wasted my time by throwing nonsense accusations at me and then telling everyone to ignore them. please?

The reason I'm not voting for you is not fear, it's because - as the state of play indicates - you are not the scummiest player in the game.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

While I'm waiting on Gentlefish to respond to my post, I've got a question for ATH:

Why, exactly, did you vote for snow dwarf?  What, specifically did you find scummy?  How did it make you feel?  Be as specific as possible.

Why I voted for snowdwarf?
I voted for snowdwarf mainly because he gave off a scummy vibe to me he seemed dodgy and I dident trust him and to be completely honest I don't know why.I voted him out of impulse because of a gut feeling and I felt he was evading questions at the time right now as I look back at it all and with my claims initially towards him had no solid evidence and I voted him due to my gut feelings simple as that.

[Silthuri]

Let's see how far we can get...
LVIII: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Town). (2 Townies, 1 Scum voting otherwise)
LVII: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Town). (3 Townies, 1 Townie and 1 Scum voting otherwise)
LVI: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Mafia). (2 Townies, 2 Townies voting otherwise)
LV: Yes, 1 Scum voted the first Lynch (Town). (4 Townies and 1 Scum, 1 Scum and 3 Town voting otherwise) <-- First instance of scum voting for the first lynch, but definitely not both.
LIV: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynch at all (Town). (2 Townies, 1 Townie voted otherwise)
LIII: Yes, 1 Scum voted the first Lynchee (Town). (5 Townies and 1 Scum, 2 Townies voting otherwise) <-- Second instance of scum voting for the first lynch, but still not both.
LII: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Town). (3 Townies, 1 Townie and 2 Scum voting otherwise)
LI: Nope, only Townies voted the first Lynchee (Town). (4 Townies, 2 Townies and 1 Scum voting otherwise)
L: Yes, 1 Scum voted the first Lynchee (Town). (2 Townies and 1 Scum, 3 Townies voting otherwise)
And this is the point where I got bored doing research.

Well pardon me for not paying attention to this small detail. 
I understand the validity of your theory now.

You have to realize at some point that there are recurring patterns in this game. They keep happening for a reason. Scum don't want to associate with each other, which is what is fundamentally different from Town. They KNOW who their teammates are. That's why their actions are affected.

I failed to notice this pattern before. I stand corrected.

If you think I'm lying, then you have literally zero idea how I play this game as Town or Scum.

I don't know how you play this game. I haven't played with you before.

If you mind me asking, who else was acting suspicious, if you believe I should've questioned someone else?

As I've said, I don't know your playstyle, thus I can't really tell you who you should have questioned. The issue for me was mainly the tunneling. IIRC AbstractTraitorHero came under fire at some point, but I don't remember you having much to do with that argument. I probably missed this though because I'm sick and can't be trusted to make any cohesive thoughts.

[doomchild]

While I'm waiting on Gentlefish to respond to my post, I've got a question for ATH:

Why, exactly, did you vote for snow dwarf?  What, specifically did you find scummy?  How did it make you feel?  Be as specific as possible.

I voted him because he was the one that stood out. That is as specific as it gets. Not really sure how this is a difficult concept, but it appears I have entered into the Master Level English courses, where I must make sure my sources are properly cited for the dissertation that I'm writing about how I voted someone that was scummy and then proceeded to act more scummy after being voted.

No, but you have reached the Master Level course where we recognize the target of a particular question.  I'm glad you answered, though.

Asking really specific questions is the only way I know to play this.  At this point, I have suspicions, but nothing concrete, and the deadline is looming.  ATH looks scummy, you look evasive, EP looks absentee, and hector looks like he's flailing.  Right now, the only means I have of getting more information is one vote and a lot of questions.  If that makes me a doctorate-level dork, so be it.

[hector13]

What's this flailing nonsense?

[AbstractTraitorHero]

How do I look scummy right now I have explained my actions multiple times and yes the reasoning was stupid and I'll thought out when I voted him based of a feeling more then evidenced.

[hector13]

What's this flailing nonsense?

Serious question, byraway.

[Elephant Parade]

How do I look scummy right now I have explained my actions multiple times and yes the reasoning was stupid and I'll thought out when I voted him based of a feeling more then evidenced.

You look scummy because you have made exactly one real attack, and it was a bandwagon.

You've played the game before, so you don't have much of an excuse for being totally useless.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

And I've explained how it wasn't a bandwagon multiple times I had my own reasons for voting them and I've said them multiple times