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[Elephant Parade]

You people talk too much! I am taking a vacation under orders of Dr. Tiruin until Monday evening at the latest.

(I'm going to do some arts and crafts tomorrow afternoon for my mental health as per Everyone in the Sad Thread, and then I have Job all day on Monday)

Oh, uh, EXTEND if that's appropriate.

Extend. As it is, I'll be busy-ish at the end of the day, and I'd rather that wasn't the case. I was going to wait until later—declaring an extend 2.5 days in advance seems a bit silly, though it isn't if you're going to be busy all that time—but I might as well do it now.

[hector13]

As an addendum to the previous post for Elephant Parade: since you seem to have thought ATH and Vector were scum through lack of activity I shall share with you the maxim I live by in games of mafia:

Activity is not indicative of alignment (you are welcome, OSG)

Also, what does the game having been going on for two days have to do with your inability to have even tentative reads on the other players? You don't seem to have followed up on any of your initial concerns on people.

I find it very difficult to accept that you don't have an inkling one way or the other on any of the other eight players in the game. Heck, even if you only have some town-leans on people, that eliminates them from being in the scum pool. You honestly have no impressions on anyone else?

PPE: it was a big deal at the time, losing my post. I had just spent an hour pissing about in my phone looking for the evidence of what I was saying and then typing it up and accidentally closed the tab :'

As for your explanation re: game progress: as the active post leader, I would hope that you'd have done the most scumhunting, rather than contenting yourself with having done as much as everyone else.

As side note, not saying these things to be mean (though some things were kinda like that, for which I'm sorry) but to get you to think about your game. One thing I learned quite recently was you need to form fast opinions in mafia, and then your goal is to confirm or reject those opinions (which are changing all the time) so you can make new ones. It has it's drawbacks (I am way more sensitive to confirmation bias, specifically) but it's a good starting point. This is not a game to be tentative in; get fackin' stuck in

I will extend too; weekends aren't the best time for me to catch up on even the few pages in this. I haven't paid much attention to anything that wasn't specifically directed at me since the 5F post, and that probably won't change 'til Tuesday (perhaps Monday evening)

[Gentlefish]

Extend. I see no reason not to when we're down two people for the weekend.

So, in your head, anybody who says they're town is lying.  There's really no defending against that, because you have already made up your mind.  That level of certainty bothers me a lot.  Scum would be certain who is town and who isn't.

I mean, for me it's Trying Too Hard To Appear Town. Why do you feel the need to announce township in a game about hunting scum? It feels like you're trying to be like an Invader Zim. Like it's a poor disguise. It's a tell in my book.

It's really easy for you to say that after the fact, but the truth of the matter (if one were to adopt your excessively literal frame of reference) is that you could have picked me as a target at any time.  I've kept my vote on TinFoilTopHat because I (apparently mistakenly) thought that keeping some amount of pressure on a lurker was a good idea; I've answered questions and asked some while my vote was where it was, aside from my attack on ATH.

This is a lot tougher than I expected; I thought I'd be able to spot scummy behavior all over the place, and the truth is that that hasn't been true.  I've gotten twinges here and there, but knowing who to vote for when nobody looks 100% guilty is really difficult, especially when you know you're going to get attacked over your choice.  Even now, if I definitively thought you, Gentlefish, were scum, I couldn't put my vote on you without being immediately attacked for OMGUS.  Separating how I feel about being attacked from the evidence here in this thread is apparently a lot more complicated than I expected.

Heh. Mafia a tricky game. Some people's scumtells are other people's null tells. It's D1, and I'm going with my gut. Hence why I'm after (what I see as) an activelurker.

Questions:

• Gentlefish:  If you're so convinced I'm scum, who is my partner?

No clue. If I had to pick, I'd say Persus or Veccy.

[doomchild]

I mean, for me it's Trying Too Hard To Appear Town. Why do you feel the need to announce township in a game about hunting scum? It feels like you're trying to be like an Invader Zim. Like it's a poor disguise. It's a tell in my book.

That's kind of my point, though.  It's your book.  You and I have never interacted before this, this is my first time playing Mafia, and I've gotten the impression that you're not super experienced here, either.  So your utter certainty feels, to me, like the kind of certainty that scum would have, because they already know who's town and who's not.  Especially given that your evidence is that I've been "activelurking" (a word I had to look up on the MafiaScum wiki because it seemed like a contradiction in terms to me), and that I claimed that I'm town.  That seems more than a little bit flimsy, man.

[snow dwarf]

@Doomchild something weird is something that says what alignment or role or just a weird thing like I hate potatoes (I don't know who hates potatoes they are so good).
I don't understand why there are (or were) so many people going after Gentlefish. What made you think that Gentlefish is scum? Question to guys who voted or still have a vote on Gentlefish.

[hector13]

My wife abandoned me to my own devices a day earlier than expected (I had also forgot that would happen at all) so... cool.

Two questions for EP from my most recent big post (just in case they were/get missed)

1. You honestly have no inkling either way (town or scum) on any other player in the game?

2. As the most active player in the game, why haven't you done the most scumhunting, as opposed to "as much as everyone else"?

Reading through things...

[Vector]

I'm popping back in out of exile to remark that everyone who is currently bandwagoning should stop that and focus on learning to construct their own cogent arguments.

[Elephant Parade]

As an addendum to the previous post for Elephant Parade: since you seem to have thought ATH and Vector were scum through lack of activity I shall share with you the maxim I live by in games of mafia:

Activity is not indicative of alignment (you are welcome, OSG)

It wasn't only the lack of activity, though. In Vector's case, it was more the voting weirdness—of which inactivity was only a part—and with ATH, it was his refusal to seek any activity; according to him, that was different from his usual playstyle.

I find it very difficult to accept that you don't have an inkling one way or the other on any of the other eight players in the game. Heck, even if you only have some town-leans on people, that eliminates them from being in the scum pool. You honestly have no impressions on anyone else?

Oh, believe me, I had inklings. The question ATH asked, which I assume is the question you're going off of, asked (IIRC) about who you thought was the most/least scummy. I answered the first question, and I felt I didn't have a substantial enough town read on anyone to answer the second.

Also, what does the game having been going on for two days have to do with your inability to have even tentative reads on the other players? You don't seem to have followed up on any of your initial concerns on people.

Two days isn't all that long. And again, I have (and had) inklings that some people might be town.

As for your explanation re: game progress: as the active post leader, I would hope that you'd have done the most scumhunting, rather than contenting yourself with having done as much as everyone else.

I'm sorry, what? "Active post leader"? Does having the most posts grant me some kind of title? I had a bunch of free time, and no ICs were around, so I did boring stuff like bug lurkers and hassle newbies.

[hector13]

Elephant Parade spoilered 'cause it's kinda big...

Spoiler: Elephant Parade (click to show/hide)

As my current scum pick, you get number 1!

This is an interesting post for me. You're explaining your behaviour to Vector, from her analysis of your play to that point.

Other than your lack of scumhunting, addressed in my previous post, you also say you're attacking people, just not fully. Why are you not attacking people "fully"? What constitutes a "full" attack to you?

You claim that in "some of these" you're reluctant to move your vote, yet in only one are you voting someone else other than person you're "attacking". Why are you not pressuring people and then following up with more questions?

The most egregious part of this post, which warrants a direct quote, is this:

Are you being constructive right now?

Yes. What if I *hadn't* told snow dorf what he was doing wrong? Until you came back, he would have had absolutely no idea what he was doing, and we might have ended up with what would probably (7/9) have been a mislynch. My memory of my really early games is hazy, but I recall lurkers getting mislynched, so it *is* a good idea to try to get people to be active.

You use probability here, which is fair enough, we are more likely to lynch town than scum at this juncture. However, you also seem to think that Snow Dwarf is town (I mean, you're framing this argument as "they might be town", right?) and you still claim you have no inkling over who might be town or scum so... I'm curious what you mean here? (This is where you say you have no town reads, in the fourth paragraph)

As an addendum, I've never seen a lurker get lynched D1, in ~10 games. It may have been different back in the day, but it's not going to happen this day. Perhaps you can tell me why lynching a lurker on D1 would be a bit pointless?

You also seem to think that lynching a lurker will be a mislynch (ie lynching town) too. What do you mean by that?

The answer you gave to Vector's question is also interesting. Perhaps it would be better phrased as "what content have you generated in the game so far?" which I'd quite like you to answer too.

Finally, you place an imaginary vote on ATH. What do you think will come of that?

Vector

Who do you think is least likely to be scum in other words who do you think is town?

I'm certain that I'm town. I think that you and EP are probably town, tentatively doomchild as well. My read on snow dorf is also town so far. I don't yet have a coherent enough read on everyone to make any meaningful judgments. I tend to form my reads slowly and report them only when I'm fairly certain of something.

Could you tell us why you think EP, snow dwarf and ATH are probably town?


Gentlefish

Who do you think is scum and why?

Gosh. I don't have enough reads to say for certain, so I won't name names. Doomchild is reading funny enough for me to want to lynch him D1, though.

What is doomchild saying that makes you so suspicious of them? Already answered

Is there anything (other than it appearing defensive) about people saying they are certainly town that is particularly scummy? Already answered, above link.

However, what makes doomchild more likely to be scum than Elephant Parade or Vector?

They both also said they were town when asked about who they thought was town. EP has appeared to active lurk, as have the newer players, though perhaps because they don't know what questions to ask.

Is there any evidence you can find of doomchild not activelurking, for example when they were engaging in the game?


doomchild

Right now, I'm most concerned about TinFoilTopHat.  His absence thus far makes me think that he's plotting.  That same thing makes me wonder about Hector13.  Other than that, I don't have any solid leads, but I have a vague sense of unease about GentleFish.  That's just a gut reaction, though, and is subject to change.

Why does TFTH's lurking concern you more than, say, Persus13's?

Where did your gut feeling about Gentlefish originate? I won't accept "I just feel that way" as an answer.

I know I'm town, but other than me, I don't have any solid leads.  I usually start from a position of trusting new people, but I'm finding that to be oddly reversed for me right now.  I only have my gut to go on right now, but I feel like Elephant Parade is probably town, and I'm coming around to that idea about AbstractTraitorHero after re-reading my recent attack on him.  I don't have solid reads on anybody yet, because this is actually a lot harder than I expected.

What makes you think EP and ATH are town?

Hector13:  What the hell, man?  You were frustrated about a tab closing?  Do you normally fly off the handle like that?

Do you have a problem with that? How is this getting you closer to forming a read on me?


snow dwarf

I do keep a list of who potentially might be a scum and I either ask them questions or wait for them to post something weird.

Who is on this list so far?


Answers to questions

Who do you think is scum and why?

EP and, to a lesser extent, Gentlefish

Who do you think is least likely to be scum in other words who do you think is town?

doomchild leans that way for me, though not by much.

PPE:

As an addendum to the previous post for Elephant Parade: since you seem to have thought ATH and Vector were scum through lack of activity I shall share with you the maxim I live by in games of mafia:

Activity is not indicative of alignment (you are welcome, OSG)

It wasn't only the lack of activity, though. In Vector's case, it was more the voting weirdness—of which inactivity was only a part—and with ATH, it was his refusal to seek any activity; according to him, that was different from his usual playstyle.

Vector's vote wasn't weird though. It was explained and she hadn't been on to unvote. I accept there was activity elsewhere, but mafia isn't something of which you should really dip in and out; it requires a great deal of attention and energy.

ATH explained the change in behaviour (which you asked about) and you didn't follow up on your thinking that it wouldn't work to avoid him getting lynched. I don't understand how you can think he's scum then not, based on that.

Reasoning behind my thoughts there is you ask the question, with a vote, then remove the vote once he answers the question, suggesting you don't think he's scum anymore.

I find it very difficult to accept that you don't have an inkling one way or the other on any of the other eight players in the game. Heck, even if you only have some town-leans on people, that eliminates them from being in the scum pool. You honestly have no impressions on anyone else?

Oh, believe me, I had inklings. The question ATH asked, which I assume is the question you're going off of, asked (IIRC) about who you thought was the most/least scummy. I answered the first question, and I felt I didn't have a substantial enough town read on anyone to answer the second.

"Most" is a relative term. Who do you think is "most" towny, however weak the read is?

Also, what does the game having been going on for two days have to do with your inability to have even tentative reads on the other players? You don't seem to have followed up on any of your initial concerns on people.

Two days isn't all that long. And again, I have (and had) inklings that some people might be town.

Feel free to share these inklings then, and tell us what made you think them.

As for your explanation re: game progress: as the active post leader, I would hope that you'd have done the most scumhunting, rather than contenting yourself with having done as much as everyone else.

I'm sorry, what? "Active post leader"? Does having the most posts grant me some kind of title? I had a bunch of free time, and no ICs were around, so I did boring stuff like bug lurkers and hassle newbies.

Super defensive answers go! I like how you make me look like an idiot with gigante comic sans. Nice touch.

Do you feel you can't form an articulate argument and have to resort to dramatic flair to get your point across? 'cause that's what it looks like.

To answer your question, no it does not grant you a title. It does, however, grant a certain expectation that you be useful. You have not met that expectation, in my opinion.

Should we just ignore all your posts from the first two days because you were being helpful?

My expectation is that you having the most posts would mean you've done the most scumhunting though - in your own words I might add - you have done "as much as" anyone else. Do you understand why I find that suspicious?

[doomchild]

doomchild

Right now, I'm most concerned about TinFoilTopHat.  His absence thus far makes me think that he's plotting.  That same thing makes me wonder about Hector13.  Other than that, I don't have any solid leads, but I have a vague sense of unease about GentleFish.  That's just a gut reaction, though, and is subject to change.

Why does TFTH's lurking concern you more than, say, Persus13's?

Persus13 at least came in and let us know he was going to be AWOL for a bit.  We've heard literally nothing from TinFoilTopHat, which either means he's not playing at all or he's spending all his time plotting.  In both cases, he's not helping the rest of the town.

Where did your gut feeling about Gentlefish originate? I won't accept "I just feel that way" as an answer.

The majority of it comes from what I've already said.  Being so certain on such flimsy evidence feels extremely hinky to me.  It's not enough for me to want to lynch him, but it definitely puts him on my radar.

I know I'm town, but other than me, I don't have any solid leads.  I usually start from a position of trusting new people, but I'm finding that to be oddly reversed for me right now.  I only have my gut to go on right now, but I feel like Elephant Parade is probably town, and I'm coming around to that idea about AbstractTraitorHero after re-reading my recent attack on him.  I don't have solid reads on anybody yet, because this is actually a lot harder than I expected.

What makes you think EP and ATH are town?

ATH mostly convinced me after I attacked him.  I got the impression that he's just not as careful about word choice as others are, and I need to turn down the part of my brain that locks onto "suspicious" words and phrases where he's concerned.  EP feels like he's just trying to jostle everybody in the hopes that somebody slips up, which seems like a fairly legitimate tactic.  It looks like he's getting more than a little bit of pressure for it, though, so I could be wrong.

Hector13:  What the hell, man?  You were frustrated about a tab closing?  Do you normally fly off the handle like that?

Do you have a problem with that? How is this getting you closer to forming a read on me?

Your explanation mostly cleared it up for me (I hadn't realized how long you'd spent writing your post before closing the tab).  Right now, you read like town to me.

What made you think that Gentlefish is scum? Question to guys who voted or still have a vote on Gentlefish.

I actually don't have a vote on Gentlefish right now.  I answered your question above.

[Persus13]

I thought I was going to be able to get in a post today so it looks like I won't be able to post until Monday night or Tuesday Eastern Time.

If you want to get conversation going ask specific questions to specific people. Don't ask a lot of questions to everyone, your focus will be too broad.
If you think you have a case with someone, state it and keep engaged with them.
If you think an action is scummy, try to show yourself how a town player would behave differently to prevent confirmation bias.

[hector13]

We need one more extension to actually get it in, I think. A wise thing to do of Persus can't get on 'til tomorrow/Tuesday.

vote count request, just because.

[O.Wilde]

The day has been extended!

Day Ends in 87 Hours

Votes:

Elephant Parade (1) - hector13
Gentlefish (0) -
doomchild (3) - Elephant Parade, Gentlefish, snow dwarf
TinFoilTopHat (0) -
snow dwarf (0) -
hector13 (1) - AbstractTraitorHero,
AbstractTraitorHero (0) -
Persus13 (1) - Vector
Vector (0) -
No lynch -

Not voting - doomchild, TinFoilTopHat, Persus13

If TinFoilTopHat does not post by the end of the weekend, I'm going to replace them.

[Elephant Parade]

hector13: Sorry I didn't respond—I've been a bit busy, and I really needed a break. I'll be busy for the next two days, but I might be able to finish my post in that time.

[hector13]

We have the time, and you need to study. I'd like a response before day end, though, if poss.