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[Loud Whispers]

Yeah, syphilis

[PTTG??]

Yeah, syphilis

Not confirmed. Lacking dense urban populations, as Loud Whispers said, pandemic disease couldn't really get a foothold. Once full-fledged sickness arrived, however, it could be spread effectively enough.

I figured that the steelmaking Algonquinesque tribe forced other tribes to innovate or die, spreading steel west. There were urban societies at the time, the image of the native North American as a nomadic bison-hunter is entirely a result of Europeans uprooting and burning out Indian settlements everywhere they outlasted the plague. Granted, the populations were far less dense, but they still had stratified societies with craftsmen and specialists.

Speaking of reversing the disease flow, though, let's move the divergence point back a few million years: The horse never dies out in NA. As a result, they domesticate the horse, and with the horse they can domesticate the buffalo. Animal domestication leads to denser urban societies, and the two together result in a diverse plague portfolio.

When Columbus buys a few tame bison and a shipful of slaves in Cuba, he sails home with Buffalo Pox and Llama Fever, resulting in western, (and then middle eastern, and then far eastern) civilization eventually losing 90% of it's population. At the same time, the native cities burn under introduced smallpox and plauge and see similar population declines. Some children do inherit both sets of resistances, so there's that...

[LordBucket]

the direction history would have taken if one decision had wound up being changed, an event that occurred had not, an event that didn't occur occurred, or the outcome of an event changed.

I've occasionally pondered how things would be different if during WW2 the Americans had marched into Okinawa as liberators rather than invaders. Instead of simply invading, delivered a psychological campaign distributing leaflets asking them to throw off their imperial Japanese oppressors. And then finally marched in waving old flags and singing old songs, then given impassioned, teary-eyed speeches about how deeply it hurt to fight them knowing that they were being compelled to fight under a foreign flag by their oppressive Japanese conquerors, begged forgiveness and honored the dead, who by losing, had reclaimed the sovereignty of their people.

Probably not a huge change on the grand scheme of things, but Okinawa was annexed disagreeably and the Okinawan people had only gained legal and voting rights about 40 years prior. Plus they were heavily conscripted for the war and generally not very fond of Japan. If it had been handled differently, the bloodiest battle of the allied pacific campaign could possibly have been avoided in favor of the island standing down. Hundreds of thousands of deaths could have been avoided, and rather than eventually reverting to Japanese control, Okinawa would probably be an independent nation today.

[Loud Whispers]

Not disproven, and I didn't say anything about urban societies - large urban populations m8

The Aztecs capital equaled the cities like Constantinople, Venice, Rome e.t.c. but they didn't have enough nomadic conquerors like the Mongols, the Macedonians, the Caliphate, the Vikings e.t.c. to spread rapid technological advancement to allow urban populations to rapidly grow in spite of the death rate. Consider London, when it industrialized it was the largest city in the world and the first city to reach the 1m mark since ancient Rome. Disease epidemics ran rampant through the city for centuries, cholera, black plague, various flus, none of it mattered - the rate of replacement dwarfed the destruction caused by disease, because there was massive growth in the countryside to replace rate of attrition. All they needed was their own Genghis Khan who would spread glorious central American gorillion folded corn all across the Americas to make corn corn corn for days

[WealthyRadish]

I prefer the scenario where Lithuania doesn't convert to Catholicism and the Teutonic Order gets the opportunity to make "Poland" one of those funny words in history books like "Lombardy", "Gaul", or "Aztec".

Sunset invasion is a fun comedy mod IMHO but it's not alternative history.

I didn't mean they stay pagan and somehow survive, more that they convert to Orthodox or stay pagan long enough for the baltic crusades to continue. Either way the TO would be in a better position, and Poland in a much worse position.

But all I really wanted was my fix of indignant Polish nationalism, which I'll give a 6/10, didn't include the ponymen with their bird outfits.

[TinFoilTopHat]

Alright here's my thought: early civilizations in the Americas grow in parallel to European powers.  Not necessarily an Aztec invasion type thing but like they're pretty much equal technologically when Columbus sails to the Americas or the native American equivalent sets sail for Europe.
Furthermore, what if they've been so separated that cultural values are almost completely different? Like the civilizations of America had men and women with full equality and the Aztec gods are pretty much universally worshipped.
Kinda like PTTGs idea but less influenced by Vikings and more independent.

[Loud Whispers]

That's one boring alternate history. You can say pretty much anything you want, which is why I'd much rather have space-age Aztecs walking around in blood powered battle suits bristling with cannons, yet they failed to invent the transatlantic voyager, until some conquistadors unwittingly cause aztec spesh land marines to sunset invasion yurop. Cue the hundred years war ending, the Ottoman conquests ending, the northern crusades ending, all to unite against the sunset invasion

And because I'm bored of Americentric alternate history, what if there was no Temujin and the Mongol hordes failed to conquer the world (or never even united to think of doing so)? In the long term I'd reckon either China or Persia would be the first nations to industrialize. Can you imagine the fuckhueg treasure fleets looking East and finding the Incans? OH SHIT WE'RE BACK TO AMERICA

[Kot]

But all I really wanted was my fix of indignant Polish nationalism, which I'll give a 6/10, didn't include the ponymen with their bird outfits.

*prancing nobility on horses intensifies*
You do realize that winged ponymen appeared like over 200 years later than Teutonic losers? Back in the days we still had knights of some sorts.
This This is apparently how they looked like.

[smjjames]

But all I really wanted was my fix of indignant Polish nationalism, which I'll give a 6/10, didn't include the ponymen with their bird outfits.

*prancing nobility on horses intensifies*
You do realize that winged ponymen appeared like over 200 years later than Teutonic losers? Back in the days we still had knights of some sorts.
This This is apparently how they looked like.

Giant mech in that first one, the heck? lol......

[Shadowlord]

Bahaha.

[mainiac]

They preferred to guard against the actual threats from France and North Africa.

And absent Tours this would still be true.  Unless for some reason Andulusia wouldn't act like every other kingdom in Europe.

[Kot]

You just can't handle the truth.

[mainiac]

Lovely.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

That's one boring alternate history. You can say pretty much anything you want, which is why I'd much rather have space-age Aztecs walking around in blood powered battle suits bristling with cannons, yet they failed to invent the transatlantic voyager, until some conquistadors unwittingly cause aztec spesh land marines to sunset invasion yurop. Cue the hundred years war ending, the Ottoman conquests ending, the northern crusades ending, all to unite against the sunset invasion

And because I'm bored of Americentric alternate history, what if there was no Temujin and the Mongol hordes failed to conquer the world (or never even united to think of doing so)? In the long term I'd reckon either China or Persia would be the first nations to industrialize. Can you imagine the fuckhueg treasure fleets looking East and finding the Incans? OH SHIT WE'RE BACK TO AMERICA

Going off the Mongols, what if the empire as it was conquered by Ghengis Khan managed to last as one unit rather than being splintered for at least a century after his death?

[Loud Whispers]

Inb4 what if the Poles destroyed the Ottomans entirely at Vienna then destroyed the Hungarians entirely and took Vienna for themselves then just kept conquering everyone into greater Poland

Going off the Mongols, what if the empire as it was conquered by Ghengis Khan managed to last as one unit rather than being splintered for at least a century after his death?

There'd be three civilizations, the Japanese, the British and the Mongolian, at least until the Mongolians figure out how to do a naval invasion or invent scuba gear for horses