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[mainiac]

Japan doesn't have to do well, they just need to open a front, forcing Russia to split her forces.

So what?  The Japanese are now fighting the Russians in Siberia.  They maybe take Vladivostok.  And I mean maybe, the Japanese didn't exactly have a great ability to launch an offensive against a modern army.  All their offensives in the Pacific combined were like 11 divisions.  And those are Japanese divisions which tended to be smaller and more lightly equipped.  They racked up spectacular successes in the first six months but there are a lot of reasons for that which have nothing to do with the quality of troops.  They were attacking hastily raised forces that were even worse equipped then themselves and cut off by the Japanese navy.

The Japanese equipped a much, much larger force in China (hundreds of divisions) but that was fighting against an enemy that often struggled to have rifles let alone artillery trucks and airplanes.  These armies were poorly trained, equiped and led and included huge numbers of chinese and koreans coerced into fighting.  Those anti-Chinese forces are not even a factor in attacking the Soviets.  They certainly are not going to soak of millions of Soviet troops and cause a collapse in the west.

I prefer the scenario where Lithuania doesn't convert to Catholicism and the Teutonic Order gets the opportunity to make "Poland" one of those funny words in history books like "Lombardy", "Gaul", or "Aztec".

Sunset invasion is a fun comedy mod IMHO but it's not alternative history.

[Shadowlord]

> fighting a land war in asia

 

[Kot]

Let's talk about Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth survives and also Poland wins WW2 and stuff because Poles totally love to talk about that and write books about it.

I prefer the scenario where Lithuania doesn't convert to Catholicism and the Teutonic Order gets the opportunity to make "Poland" one of those funny words in history books like "Lombardy", "Gaul", or "Aztec".

>as if Teutonic Order could ever break through our impregnable Casimir The Great castles that were everywhere and were stronk unlike Teutonic Order castles made out of mud while better Polan has stone and horse castle wall
>like if we wouldn't win due to our superior faith in Jesus, also superior battlecries of "BOGURODZICA" and "KURWAAA" and superior winged PL-01 tanks sent back in time to help win because Polan can into time travel not space
>implying Lithuania has any choice we convert it anyway and have female King instead of some Lithuanian chief and we prance hapilly on our horses laughing at anyone who opposes glorious Polan because we're nobler than yuo

Spoiler: Come at me I'm stronker than yuo (click to show/hide)

> fighting a land war in asia

Eh, as true as that is, this "argument" gets pretty damn annoying at times. You theoretically could fight and win an land war in Asia, it's just unbeliveably hard (though, Mongols)... at least it's still easier than fighting an naval war in Asia, since you don't have to drag ships around with you everywhere.

Also, there's no actual point in fighting an war in Asia when Poland can just reclaim Moscow and hang some flags around and Russians will be too heartbroken to do anything.

[mainiac]

Dont fight a land war in Asia is a strategic assessment specifically for the US, specifically in the context of the Cold War.  During WWII it was noticed that it was very difficult to supply an army across the ocean.  It was also noticed that the number of troops involved in small asian conflicts were quite large.  The potential adversaries of the Soviet Union and People's Republic of China would have a relatively easy time projecting their power into Asia.  Therefore fighting a land war in Asia would be playing into the weaknesses of the United States.

[Kot]

Spoiler: Speaking of fighting an land war in Asia, I have found a nice little map of world in next 50 years (click to show/hide)

Notice how Japan is completly missing and yet, UK still exists because well, we have to steal someone's jobs after all.

Dont fight a land war in Asia is a strategic assessment specifically for the US, specifically in the context of the Cold War.  During WWII it was noticed that it was very difficult to supply an army across the ocean.  It was also noticed that the number of troops involved in small asian conflicts were quite large.  The potential adversaries of the Soviet Union and People's Republic of China would have a relatively easy time projecting their power into Asia.  Therefore fighting a land war in Asia would be playing into the weaknesses of the United States.

It is also very difficult to supply an army across an ocean of mud, snow and lack of roads which apparently is a lot of Asia. Trying to get from western Russia to eastern Russia on ground (Trans-Siberian Railway exploded or something) sounds goddamn horrible, it takes a week by train anyway. Not getting into details here so there might be some magical way of doing so.

[Shadowlord]

Lots and lots of sled dogs? The cast of Ice Road Truckers?

The point is, Japan had far less troops and production capability than the US and had been fucking around in the more southerly parts of asia for a while, so while they could wreck the (pacific) soviet navy, as long as they couldn't just ride the railroads, they had no chance of reaching anywhere important in the west. They also weren't going to get anything useful from taking soviet territory in the east, afaik. Of course, maybe I'm wrong there - maybe there are natural resources there that I don't know about, other than wood or w/e.

[Ghazkull]

Hmm im mostly interested in a scenario were Charlemagne doesnt become Charlemagne but sucks utterly. After his fathers death he begins a civil war with his brother for the crown and Francia dissolves into decades of infighting.

The results would be interesting...Saxony would survive quite some time longer, Eastern Europe wouldn't be converted to Christianism. The Viking Age might have lasted not only longer but would have maybe had also a much stronger effect.

[mainiac]

The results would be interesting...Saxony would survive quite some time longer, Eastern Europe wouldn't be converted to Christianism. The Viking Age might have lasted not only longer but would have maybe had also a much stronger effect.

Eastern europe had been converting for hundreds of years.

[Loud Whispers]

Hmm im mostly interested in a scenario were Charlemagne doesnt become Charlemagne but sucks utterly. After his fathers death he begins a civil war with his brother for the crown and Francia dissolves into decades of infighting.

The results would be interesting...Saxony would survive quite some time longer, Eastern Europe wouldn't be converted to Christianism. The Viking Age might have lasted not only longer but would have maybe had also a much stronger effect.

No battle of Tours, the Umayyad successfully create a Caliphate in Western Europe, finding no angry united heavy infantry army encamped in the forest, their intelligence reports of a disunited Francia are correct and they blob through. Whether or not the Caliphate would then splinter into smaller factions or not, you'd end up with a much stronger rivalry between Abbasid and Umayyad successor states, more would be at stake. There'd also be no need to find an alternative trade route around the ME to reach India 1000 years later, so no accidental discoveries of NA and SA for some while, unless some island Christians up norf managed to island up the whole time
Basically the average CK2 game in a nutshell

[Shadowlord]

How about them aztec invaders?

[mainiac]

their intelligence reports of a disunited Francia are correct and they blob through.

This from the same kingdom that spent the next 400 years utterly failing to make progress against a handful of mountain kings immediately to their north?

The reason "blob" is perjorative on the CK forums is because blobs tended to be the exception, not the rule.

[PTTG??]

Lief Erikson brought men and women, along with some wheat and horses, on his venture to Vinland in ~1000 CE, thanks to his family being more highly respected before his exile.

As a result, his settlement thrives long enough to be a port-of-call in the new world. As heretical pagans invade scandinavia, the Norse begin to migrate west in small number.

At first, relations with the native "Scraelings" are warm, and no small number of Norse men take native brides, and vice versa (Norse women had some measure of freedom when selecting husbands); some Norse smiths set up forges. As they learn each other's languages, the Norse tell of christian savages back in Europe. After a few years, a great sickness sweeps the natives, leaving the Norse colonists nearly untouched- a charismatic leader of a local tribe determines that the Norse colonists are to blame, and things turn sour.

There are a number of skirmishes before the Norse colony is ultimately wiped out, except for the few who have married into local clans. The conflict drives migrants south and west across the continent, bringing the plague, and the genes to resist it, with them.

Five hundred years later...

The first Christian explorers of the New World arrive on the shores of America, Set down the flag of Spain, and are immediately struck down by a flying, spinning, <<*Steel Tomahawk*>>.

The population of native Americans, though lower than in OTL at the time, is now mostly immune to western disease, already has the horse and steel, and consider white-skinned boat people to be demons bent on spreading a false Religion. There are still local divisions between clans and kingdoms, even wars, but the growing threat of European incursions is a powerful unifier....

[Baffler]

their intelligence reports of a disunited Francia are correct and they blob through.

This from the same kingdom that spent the next 400 years utterly failing to make progress against a handful of mountain kings immediately to their north?

The reason "blob" is perjorative on the CK forums is because blobs tended to be the exception, not the rule.

It's not that they couldn't, it's that they didn't give too much of a shit about it. It was (and is) pretty poor, and the mountains you mention would have made taking the territory more expensive than it was worth despite their relative weakness. They preferred to guard against the actual threats from France and North Africa. Of course then the Umayyads exploded and became the Taifa kingdoms, and the Christians were able to push south, but that's neither here nor there.

[Loud Whispers]

Five hundred years later...

The first Christian explorers of the New World arrive on the shores of America, Set down the flag of Spain, and are immediately struck down by a flying, spinning, <<*Steel Tomahawk*>>.

The population of native Americans, though lower than in OTL at the time, is now mostly immune to western disease, already has the horse and steel, and consider white-skinned boat people to be demons bent on spreading a false Religion. There are still local divisions between clans and kingdoms, even wars, but the growing threat of European incursions is a powerful unifier....

Five hundred years later the diseases that afflicted the West would have long since evolved to strains from which they had no defence, and without large urban populations specialized craftsmen castes could not form. It'd be much more awesome alternate history if the Vikings brought horses that survived beyond them, and there were Genghis Khans popping up all over the Murricas, fucking the Aztecs into oblivion, but then spreading the Aztec civilization everywhere at the same time to make ever-increasing urban Empires

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Five hundred years later the diseases that afflicted the West would have long since evolved to strains from which they had no defence, and without large urban populations specialized craftsmen castes could not form. It'd be much more awesome alternate history if the Vikings brought horses that survived beyond them, and there were Genghis Khans popping up all over the Murricas, fucking the Aztecs into oblivion, but then spreading the Aztec civilization everywhere at the same time to make ever-increasing urban Empires

Wouldn't the evolution of the strains go both ways, with the natives getting their own diseases that the Europeans would be vulnerable to, which would spread east and affect the Middle East and Asia as well?