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[Zpike]

One time I trade and 1000 or so is accepted as profit.  Another time 2500.  This last time I kept bumping up the profit for him all the way to 3500 and he got up and left?  Said I didn't take him seriously?

Question:  How the heck can I tell how much profit he is going to want so I don't have to guess until he just gets up and goes without letting me trade?

Is there a formula or something so I know how much profit I have to give him?

[Shonai_Dweller]

Double the value of goods usually works.
Probably could do better, especially with higher negotiation skill.

[Graknorke]

When you make unreasonable offers, their mood gets worse, and eventually they leave.

[Miuramir]

...
Is there a formula or something so I know how much profit I have to give him?

You may want to review the Trading entry on the wiki. 

My guess is that your primary error is in thinking in terms of absolute profit, i.e. "trader wants to make 1000 profit".  This is incorrect; traders are looking for percentage returns of profit, i.e. "trader wants to make 50% profit". 

Given the terrible dangers of trading in the DF world, they can easily start out wanting closer to 100% profit; one of the common suggestions therefore being to make some moderate-sized trades at double the value (ie, offer 2000 for 1000 'list price' worth of goods) to improve their mood (and your trader's skill), and then make a more aggressive offer on a larger purchase.  Depending on how badly you need their stuff, handle appropriately; a 50% profit offer is unlikely to get them upset at you however in my experience, and you may be able to go lower in some situations. 

[Zpike]

Excellent advice.

Thanks everyone!

[FantasticDorf]

Also if that was a elf caravan, no matter what you offer. If anything within is made out of wood (even the barrels/bins containing your trade goods) they will get offended and leave either immediately or after a few offensive trades.

Its best to swap to metal bins and stone pots/grown/metal barrels sometime during the game if you want a thriving trade relationship with the elves, besides being more convenient material-wise to prevent misunderstandings, and eventual declarations of war.

[Bumber]

Also if that was a elf caravan, no matter what you offer. If anything within is made out of wood (even the barrels/bins containing your trade goods) they will get offended and leave either immediately or after a few offensive trades.

Its best to swap to metal bins and stone pots/grown/metal barrels sometime during the game if you want a thriving trade relationship with the elves, besides being more convenient material-wise to prevent misunderstandings, and eventual declarations of war.

You can give the goods without the container for non-liquids. Wood decorations are the hidden danger. Beware selling decorated second-hand goods.

[FantasticDorf]

Also if that was a elf caravan, no matter what you offer. If anything within is made out of wood (even the barrels/bins containing your trade goods) they will get offended and leave either immediately or after a few offensive trades.

Its best to swap to metal bins and stone pots/grown/metal barrels sometime during the game if you want a thriving trade relationship with the elves, besides being more convenient material-wise to prevent misunderstandings, and eventual declarations of war.

You can give the goods without the container for non-liquids. Wood decorations are the hidden danger. Beware selling decorated second-hand goods.

Metal is expensive, a aluminum bin for instance (very valuable) while being extremely light is a worthwhile bin material (with plenty of alternatives), otherwise its a laborious task to click each individual article and craft within a bin (as opposed to just shift clicking or clicking a bin en-masse). A masterwork un-decorated metal bin full of high quality clay & glass crafts (from a magma forge practically for free)/High quality weapon components/statues will be extremely hard for the elves to refuse or find fault with.

more convenient material-wise

[Max™]

A minecart full of glass serrated discs at high velocities is also hard to argue with, but I don't see why you wouldn't want to give them wooden stuff, it's the only surefire way to get them to siege you.

[FantasticDorf]

A minecart full of glass serrated discs at high velocities is also hard to argue with, but I don't see why you wouldn't want to give them wooden stuff, it's the only surefire way to get them to siege you.

> Place depot in a forest - Cut trees within viewing range and watch them run away in disgust.

Robbing them only gets so far. Having a elf siege isn't particularly fun because of the non-existence of elfi-ite, despite being nature loving cretins it's more reasonable to go after the humans instead for warmongering and co-operate with the elves in trading for some plants and the occasional animal (booze and rare-ish livestock pretty much)

[Bumber]

Metal is expensive, a aluminum bin for instance (very valuable) while being extremely light is a worthwhile bin material (with plenty of alternatives), otherwise its a laborious task to click each individual article and craft within a bin (as opposed to just shift clicking or clicking a bin en-masse). A masterwork un-decorated metal bin full of high quality clay & glass crafts (from a magma forge practically for free)/High quality weapon components/statues will be extremely hard for the elves to refuse or find fault with.

Why would you trade away your valuable metals when you can make furniture out of them? Any bin trade value is going to be dwarfed in comparison to the contents you mentioned. More importantly, you're giving metal to the elves!

You can select an entire bin's contents then deselect just the bin itself. The only bin/barrels I ever sell are the (inferior) ones that aren't made in my fort, just to get rid of them.

[FantasticDorf]

You can select an entire bin's contents then deselect just the bin itself. The only bin/barrels I ever sell are the (inferior) ones that aren't made in my fort, just to get rid of them.

The issue however is that by laws of priority, when shift-clicked to move all your accessible goods for trade in the menu, it clicks the umbrella bin first, additionally by mis-click the bin can be selected and your previously selected arrangement of goods lost

And when i have 100+ exceptional mussel shell bracelets to sell to some gullible poor mug via my seafood production lines (I'm quite fond of bone-crafters really), it's a real workout to click all the contents. Selling the bin also can be a clincher for additional profit in the traders aid (in addition to metals like zinc and aluminum being light enough to not eat valuable time hauling) to make them like you more even if you have diddly squat to offer them (say if a unfortunate accident occurred and a FB battered your food/trade good industry workers into dust)

Elves barely comprehend what charcoal is (obviously not enough to get disgusted and pretty much become a sulking civ in terms of behavior), let alone the methods to make metal. And im not really sure what you're doing or how you're doing metal wise if you can't make enough to import meltables and a reasonable amount of ores to run workshops to replace what you lose (buying up entire caravan food supplies in bulk to fuel more lavish and exotic kitchen meals for instance as a example)

[Niddhoger]

I've generally had no problem getting traders to accept 50% profit margins.  However, they will accept as low as 30% when you make them happy enough.  I swear I've seen even lower on happy traders when I make deals for several thousand items at a time.

So generally, start with smaller trades of just a handful of items each until the trader's mood improves.  Once he hits ecstatic, select everything else you want to trade and give him just 30% all in one go.

[Bumber]

I find it rather annoying when they select additional items of yours to add to the trade, and then you have to hunt down what those items were, because they just happened to be in a bin with the stuff you actually wanted to trade or they're way to valuable for what you're getting. Do they only ask for other stuff when they wouldn't have accepted the trade otherwise? Or might they have begrudgingly accepted if you didn't have additional items?

(I'll respond to FantasticDorf's post eventually. I need to double check how bin selection works. I haven't had much time to play recently, and all my caravans so far have scuttled for various reasons.)

[Niddhoger]

I find it rather annoying when they select additional items of yours to add to the trade, and then you have to hunt down what those items were, because they just happened to be in a bin with the stuff you actually wanted to trade or they're way to valuable for what you're getting. Do they only ask for other stuff when they wouldn't have accepted the trade otherwise? Or might they have begrudgingly accepted if you didn't have additional items?

(I'll respond to FantasticDorf's post eventually. I need to double check how bin selection works. I haven't had much time to play recently, and all my caravans so far have scuttled for various reasons.)

Nah, sometimes you can deselrect the extra item and they'll accept the same trade. They only cou get offer if you are close to the line, but I've seen them accept trades around 25% before. Then another gets pissy if I try to lower the masrgin just as hair below 50%. Thast last one was with a novice who lacked judge of intent, though.