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[FallacyofUrist]

hector13. Bandwagoning scum.

Responses:

Claim's the name is red. For 100% of the games so far, the Evil role has been in red.

One: the Round of Hands, in which Evils were functionally town. Two: bastard mod. Three: Round 20, in which an Evil needed to side with town. Against you.

Role-fishing, and hopeful speculation. Does anyone else have a monster as their flavour? I don't.

Of course not, you have some sort of dream creature as your flavor. In any case, refer to round 20. A "evil" within the town that actually needs to side with the town. That's another possibility.

Rhetorical flourish. Fancy, but contentless.

Yes? What of it?

Deflection. "oh of course it looks like I'm the Evil role, but last round there was an Evil role and a True Evil role! So even if I am Evil, I'm not the Evil, amirite?"

Bastard mod. And Round 20. So, no, not deflection, reasoning.

A survivor claim with these abilities does not make sense. A survivor merely has to live 'til the end. If they have a disguise - which presumably will make them appear town or benign or whatever - why would they willingly give it up to perform an action that has nothing to do with their wincon?

Assume a True Evil that needs all players other than him dead in order to win, clashing with the survivor wincon.

¡Muy importante!

Rhetorical flourish. 

Why are you asking FoU about it? We know what FoU thinks about it, and even if we didn't, I'm quite certain he's not going to say "yeah, fair cop, lynch me" is he?

In the hopes that I might elaborate, methinks. For the record, my original intention was to say something like "yeah, fair cop, lynch me" in the post in which I claimed Minotaur... then I thought better.
~~~
You're not getting out of this without a claim, hector.
~~~

Pointless speculation. Why base an argument on whether or not to lynch someone on something that can't be proven during the course of the game?

What of role flips?

Then why are you arguing that FoU is a survivor? If he's a survivor analogue, then he's not Town analogue.

These are mutually exclusive conditions. A survivor is a third-party, and therefore has no reason to help town. If you insist on using this argument, then we would in fact benefit from FoU's death. A third-party very rarely wins on their own, and the meta-game for MM is essentially points collecting. If the Evil role wins, that's only one person FoU would have to share the points with in the end.

Furher, you appear to be assuming FoU is the key to town winning, despite the survivor claim. It seems a bit unfair on Town having a third-party that has no vested interest in a Town victory being the key to a Town victory, don't you think?

Refer to "Assume a True Evil that needs all players other than him to win, clashing with the survivor wincon."

[Elephant Parade]

(Sorry about not posting yesterday; I spent ten hours on a bus. The bus had wi-fi, but I didn't know that.)

Claim's the name is red. For 100% of the games so far, the Evil role has been in red.

One: the Round of Hands, in which Evils were functionally town.

They were still Evil, though—and the same setup can't exist here, since no-one else has a coloured name.

Two: bastard mod.

The fact that this game is bastard mod means we can't be sure of anything, not that nothing implies anything.

Three: Round 20, in which an Evil needed to side with town.

But the true Evil role's name was also red. That might not be the case here, of course, but red certainly implies evil, even if it isn't explicit.

Against you.

Irrelevant.


I'd like to hear everyone's rolename, please; I have a kinda-sorta investigate that needs the correct rolename to work, and it'd be nice if I could use it on someone else if/when FoU gets lynched.

[TheBiggerFish]

And this round there were rolenames in bold (underline?) Times New Roman that wasn't green.

If Tomasque broke that pattern, why not break this one?

Pointless speculation. Why base an argument on whether or not to lynch someone on something that can't be proven during the course of the game?

What even?  Yes it can, although I don't think we should do it.

I don't think we even have true alignments, except inasmuch anti-'evil dream' is Town-analogue.

Then why are you arguing that FoU is a survivor? If he's a survivor analogue, then he's not Town analogue.

Because he is, you numbskull.

No, it's 'my wincon actually reads like a Survivor', which it does.

Ah ah ah, but the Town not being able to kill the Evil role, that does mean somebody has to have a kill that isn't Town.  And FoU's the perfect spot to put it.

These are mutually exclusive conditions. A survivor is a third-party, and therefore has no reason to help town. If you insist on using this argument, then we would in fact benefit from FoU's death. A third-party very rarely wins on their own, and the meta-game for MM is essentially points collecting. If the Evil role wins, that's only one person FoU would have to share the points with in the end.

Counterargument: Third party having 'eliminate scum' wincon in an earlier round, survivors win if they survive, points aren't 'shared'.
What do you even mean we benefit from FoU' s death, because he's the only known way to get rid of the evil role.

Furher, you appear to be assuming FoU is the key to town winning, despite the survivor claim. It seems a bit unfair on Town having a third-party that has no vested interest in a Town victory being the key to a Town victory, don't you think?

Maybe, but nevertheless he probably is, and I presume the Evil role will win alone if they aren't taken out.

[FallacyofUrist]

[1] They were still Evil, though—and the same setup can't exist here, since no-one else has a coloured name.

[2] The fact that this game is bastard mod means we can't be sure of anything, not that nothing implies anything.

[3] But the true Evil role's name was also red. That might not be the case here, of course, but red certainly implies evil, even if it isn't explicit.

[4] Irrelevant.

[5] I'd like to hear everyone's rolename, please; I have a kinda-sorta investigate that needs the correct rolename to work, and it'd be nice if I could use it on someone else if/when FoU gets lynched.

[1]: See alternate scenario. Like in Round 20.

[2]: So?

[3]: Bastard mod.

[4]: Irrelevant.

[5]: How does that tie into you being the Prophet?

[hector13]

Ahhh cock. Had a post all laid out and everything... *sigh*

ctrl+t opens the new tab, don't know why I hit ctrl+r

FoU

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

hector13. Bandwagoning scum.

I'm not the only person to have jumped on that bandwagon though, and scum is hardly the only alignment that bandwagons. Are you only not voting for EP because you need a reason to vote for me to tie up the vote?

Now, you're saying I'm scum here, but haven't really provided any evidence of such. Perhaps you'd like to share, with quotes?

Responses:

Claim's the name is red. For 100% of the games so far, the Evil role has been in red.

One: the Round of Hands, in which Evils were functionally town. Two: bastard mod. Three: Round 20, in which an Evil needed to side with town. Against you.

Role-fishing, and hopeful speculation. Does anyone else have a monster as their flavour? I don't.

Of course not, you have some sort of dream creature as your flavor. In any case, refer to round 20. A "evil" within the town that actually needs to side with the town. That's another possibility.

Rhetorical flourish. Fancy, but contentless.

Yes? What of it?

Deflection. "oh of course it looks like I'm the Evil role, but last round there was an Evil role and a True Evil role! So even if I am Evil, I'm not the Evil, amirite?"

Bastard mod. And Round 20. So, no, not deflection, reasoning.

A survivor claim with these abilities does not make sense. A survivor merely has to live 'til the end. If they have a disguise - which presumably will make them appear town or benign or whatever - why would they willingly give it up to perform an action that has nothing to do with their wincon?

Assume a True Evil that needs all players other than him dead in order to win, clashing with the survivor wincon.

So your defense (or attack?) is "the rules were x in a previous round, and this is a bastard game, so I obviously can't be the Evil role in this round, even though it really looks like it."?

You're not getting out of this without a claim, hector.

I'm not going to claim whether or not I "get out of this". I've already said I'm not going to claim, so any claim I do make isn't going to be trusted, and even if I did claim, I'm sure you'd find a way to say I'm not standing by what I said earlier and make it look scummy.

Looking at it another way, everyone else has more or less claimed, and there is also the idea that there's a particular actor present that is the only one that can take out the Evil role. It could very well be that I am that particular actor and don't want to reveal such to an Evil killer, or it could very well be that I am not that particular actor, but that I'm convinced that I am town and would be alright with the Evil killer taking me out instead of that particular actor. It could very well be something completely different. Maybe I'm a Jester?

Regardless, you won't find out unless you lynch me *shrug*

I also like how you forgot to edit the FoS

Pointless speculation. Why base an argument on whether or not to lynch someone on something that can't be proven during the course of the game?

What of role flips?

What of them? I imagine that we're going to need to lynch at least two players to confirm or dismiss the theory, by which point the game will probably be over. I don't think something like that should be used as a basis on whether or not we should lynch someone - at least not to convince other players, anyway.

Then why are you arguing that FoU is a survivor? If he's a survivor analogue, then he's not Town analogue.

These are mutually exclusive conditions. A survivor is a third-party, and therefore has no reason to help town. If you insist on using this argument, then we would in fact benefit from FoU's death. A third-party very rarely wins on their own, and the meta-game for MM is essentially points collecting. If the Evil role wins, that's only one person FoU would have to share the points with in the end.

Furher, you appear to be assuming FoU is the key to town winning, despite the survivor claim. It seems a bit unfair on Town having a third-party that has no vested interest in a Town victory being the key to a Town victory, don't you think?

Refer to "Assume a True Evil that needs all players other than him to win, clashing with the survivor wincon."

In summary, your defense is "I might look like the Evil role, but someone else is probably more evil than me."?

Everybody: Has there ever been a repeat of a round mechanic/gimmick during the game? Has there ever been a repeat in consecutive rounds of a mechanic/gimmick?

TBF

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And this round there were rolenames in bold (underline?) Times New Roman that wasn't green.

If Tomasque broke that pattern, why not break this one?

Pointless speculation. Why base an argument on whether or not to lynch someone on something that can't be proven during the course of the game?

What even?  Yes it can, although I don't think we should do it.

Why are you using it to try to convince people then? I'm not sure anybody is going to be convinced by "trust me guys!", particularly when your argument for wanting to lynch FoU was "my flavour" and your argument for not wanting to lynch FoU is "my flavour".

I don't think we even have true alignments, except inasmuch anti-'evil dream' is Town-analogue.

Then why are you arguing that FoU is a survivor? If he's a survivor analogue, then he's not Town analogue.

Because he is, you numbskull.

Prove it. The best way to do that would probably be to lynch you, that way we can all be sure what your flavour actually is, and draw our own conclusions.

I'm not sure you're going to convince too many people that you're right by insulting them, either... perhaps work on your rhetoric?

No, it's 'my wincon actually reads like a Survivor', which it does.

Ah ah ah, but the Town not being able to kill the Evil role, that does mean somebody has to have a kill that isn't Town.  And FoU's the perfect spot to put it.

You're making many assumptions regarding this. You don't know who is or isn't Town - including yourself! - and you have no idea if Starver or EP is telling the truth regarding their role and/or abilities. You know nothing about my role, flavour, or abilities. You're also assuming that the bastard mechanics don't apply to the flavour, in which it could just be trying to make you think there's one special role out there to kill the Evil, when there really isn't.

Occam's Razor, man, come on.

I would also question why you think a survivor - a traditionally benign third-party role with no vested interest in who wins between the Town and scum, as they merely need to live 'til the end to win - would be the Town's key to victory. That would be tremendously unfair to town to have their ability to win the game completely out of their control.

Survivor.

Furher, you appear to be assuming FoU is the key to town winning, despite the survivor claim. It seems a bit unfair on Town having a third-party that has no vested interest in a Town victory being the key to a Town victory, don't you think?

Maybe, but nevertheless he probably is, and I presume the Evil role will win alone if they aren't taken out.

Like I said, you need to work harder than "'CAUSE I SAID SO" to convince me.

[Starver]

hector13. Bandwagoning scum.

This is my main thinking, here at the ragged end of the marathon. But that's Hector's MO.

FoS Hector, though, on the assumption that Fallacy isn't a straight and/or double bluffed enemy..  (Is blue the right colour for that?. Making it explicit.)

[hector13]

(Sorry about not posting yesterday; I spent ten hours on a bus. The bus had wi-fi, but I didn't know that.)

Claim's the name is red. For 100% of the games so far, the Evil role has been in red.

One: the Round of Hands, in which Evils were functionally town.

They were still Evil, though—and the same setup can't exist here, since no-one else has a coloured name.

Two: bastard mod.

The fact that this game is bastard mod means we can't be sure of anything, not that nothing implies anything.

Three: Round 20, in which an Evil needed to side with town.

But the true Evil role's name was also red. That might not be the case here, of course, but red certainly implies evil, even if it isn't explicit.

Against you.

Irrelevant.


I'd like to hear everyone's rolename, please; I have a kinda-sorta investigate that needs the correct rolename to work, and it'd be nice if I could use it on someone else if/when FoU gets lynched.

I'd also like to point out the active lurkiness of this post.

And the buddying element, seeing as how anyone with eyes can see the arguments FoU presented were irrelevant.

Also the rolefishiness of the last bit. Might just need the names of the roles for wholesale murder.

hector13. Bandwagoning scum.

This is my main thinking, here at the ragged end of the marathon. But that's Hector's MO.

I think that warrants a "fuck off" for boiling down my play to following everyone else

Since when do I bandwagon?

FoS Hector, though, on the assumption that Fallacy isn't a straight and/or double bluffed enemy..  (Is blue the right colour for that?. Making it explicit.)

Blue is the color for that. Why not go whole hog and vote me though? Do you not want to be responsible for the final vote on someone?

[Starver]

Hector, re: repetitions. Yes, e.g. the Faltering Music, and other aspects.  And I even know why, in hindsight, as should at least one other person.

Not only was the prior round an exemplar of this, it was also when (for my very last planned revelation of this sort, I promise) you should look at the initial letters in this particular segment.

Did anyone really know enough? Neatly ended dead 'cause our real rogue initiated dully ordinary rogue's special nastiness. E xcept that remained ostensibly unknown, not deducible. Questionably unlucky effects? Should those insidious obscurations negate most actions, realistically?

(Assume the obvious typo is not a typo; and then add a 'K' to the end, because I obviously did mess up on that detail.)

[Starver]

hector13. Bandwagoning scum.

This is my main thinking, here at the ragged end of the marathon. But that's Hector's MO.

I think that warrants a "fuck off" for boiling down my play to following everyone else

Since when do I bandwagon?

Bad phrasing on my part. It's not the bandwagoning, it's the attack-dog nature that is your MO, for right or wrong, for truth or falatiousness. That you used it here to jump on suspicions and make the bandwagon roll is the problem I have. And refuse to tit-for-tat along the way.  That is definitely your playing style, but it seems like it's a bit Spinal Tap in this instance.

FoS Hector, though, on the assumption that Fallacy isn't a straight and/or double bluffed enemy..  (Is blue the right colour for that?. Making it explicit.)

Blue is the color for that. Why not go whole hog and vote me though? Do you not want to be responsible for the final vote on someone?

Wasn't scared of that with Fallacy.  But I don't want to condemn you (as I might if A.N.Other is perfectly happy to build on my suspicion) before I'm sure.

[hector13]

hector13. Bandwagoning scum.

This is my main thinking, here at the ragged end of the marathon. But that's Hector's MO.

I think that warrants a "fuck off" for boiling down my play to following everyone else

Since when do I bandwagon?

Bad phrasing on my part. It's not the bandwagoning, it's the attack-dog nature that is your MO, for right or wrong, for truth or falatiousness. That you used it here to jump on suspicions and make the bandwagon roll is the problem I have. And refuse to tit-for-tat along the way.  That is definitely your playing style, but it seems like it's a bit Spinal Tap in this instance.

We can't just wait around for the Evil role to kill everyone. For all we know the "one role to kill the Evil" is actually present, and the fact FoU has only one kill is so he can kill them without being able to murder his way to victory.

I started the voting because it's a bit pointless to try to no lynch through things, particularly if there is a time limit to this. I don't particularly care if it looks scummy - frankly, an understandable thing - so long as we do things.

The problem we're having right now is TBF seems to think we should all trust him to do as he says, when he doesn't have all the information, and his interpretation of the information he does have could be flawed. If we lynch someone, we get a flip, that we can trust, and that we can build on. If we lynch FoU, and he flips Minotaur, we have your roles confirmed, though not necessarily your alignments.

I assume the "tit for tat" part is in reference to my stubborness not to claim. I normally don't want to make assumptions about someone's position, but I think the day ends in about a half hour, so I don't have the luxury of asking about it.

I'm not claiming because it doesn't benefit the town to do so, at this point. I think it actually helps the Evil role.

We start the game - as town - not knowing anything about other players (normally, anyway; I know you and TBF claim to have FoU's role, and he appears to have confirmed that) and having to get content into the game by interacting with other players. Knowing someone's role and abilities is useful, but it can only be confirmed 100% as true from a flip, so a claim doesn't really do anything.

If everyone claims, they will more than likely claim a benign alignment along with it, such as has happened here. That puts us back to square one. As town, we know someone is lying about their role, but we need to figure out who, because they'll more than likely be the Evil role.

Meanwhile, the Evil role has a list of things the Town has claimed, and has their pick of who they should target with whatever ability they have. They quite clearly have the advantage at that point, as the Town are still figuring out who they can trust, the Evil role picks off the most powerful town members 'til they have nothing to worry about but the day game.

If I don't claim the Evil role has to figure out if I am a powerful town member, in which case they should target me to get rid of me to hamstring the town, or if I'm a bit useless, in which case the town loses nothing. I don't particularly care if I get lynched over it, because at least that way there's evidence behind it that y'all can follow up on, as opposed to when the Evil role hits during the night (assuming no watchers or the like)

FoS Hector, though, on the assumption that Fallacy isn't a straight and/or double bluffed enemy..  (Is blue the right colour for that?. Making it explicit.)

Blue is the color for that. Why not go whole hog and vote me though? Do you not want to be responsible for the final vote on someone?

Wasn't scared of that with Fallacy.  But I don't want to condemn you (as I might if A.N.Other is perfectly happy to build on my suspicion) before I'm sure.

This makes it look like you think I'm not the Evil role, though perhaps just the most suspicious person... what is more suspicious about me than anyone else?

[Tomasque]

Round Over - Scum Wins!

hector13 was killed by FallacyofUrist the MINOTAUR
hector13 was the Champion

Spoiler: Champion (click to show/hide)

 Your sleep always brought you dreams of greatness and glory. You knew you were destined to be a hero. As time went on, the dreams grew in power, and at last, you felt that they are a dream no more. Finally, you will slay an evil beast in a show of unmatched might! Armed with the power of the sword, you are the Champion!
    ~~~
 The glory of battle is surging in your bones, and you know you may strike forth and slay anyone. If you publicly cast the vote to kill another, you shall gloriously slay them at the day's end, striking them down with the power of justice!

^{Since one side cannot be prevented from winning, the game is over.}
FallacyofUrist gets one victory point.

Spoiler: Player Roles (click to show/hide)

 You saw it when you slept, and heard it speaking in your mind. It's savage growls - you knew they were the cries of a beast yearning to be free. Now, when dreams have slipped into the waking hours, you can feel it's mind seeping into your flesh as its rage becoms your own...      ...At last, you enjoy the taste of freedom - you are chained no longer to the prison of the mind. Now, you can finally stalk the halls of the labyrinth until the end of time! You are the MINOTAUR!
    ~~~
 Your desire to kill calls to you in your bones. You may release this bloodthirst upon a helpless mortal, but at a price - along with the blood of the victim, your guise of humanity shall be shed as well. It would be best to save your horns for one whom is the most needing of them, lest you find your time's end comes before the end of time...

 The power of dreams called to you, and you knew that one day, dreams would no longer be figments of the mind. In preparation, you trained your dreams to recognize other people's nightmares. Now, dreams have grown powerful, and you feel an evil dream becoming it's dreamer's master. You vow to find a way to destroy it! You too, feel your dream growing stronger within you, and it gives you the power you need to find the menace. Your dream becomes you and you become it. You are the Sorcerer!
    ~~~
 You feel the dreams around you, and find a dream unlike the others'. It is so savage, so powerful, so... bold, that when you search for the one it hides inside, you are brought face-to-face with it as well. It stares at you unrecognizing, but you see what it is:
     

 You saw it when you slept, and heard it speaking in your mind. It's savage growls - you knew they were the cries of a beast yearning to be free. Now, when dreams have slipped into the waking hours, you can feel it's mind seeping into your flesh as its rage becoms your own...      ...At last, you enjoy the taste of freedom - you are chained no longer to the prison of the mind. Now, you can finally stalk the halls of the labyrinth until the end of time! You are the MINOTAUR!
    ~~~
 Your desire to kill calls to you in your bones. You may release this bloodthirst upon a helpless mortal, but at a price - along with the blood of the victim, your guise of humanity shall be shed as well. It would be best to save your horns for one whom is the most needing of them, lest you find your time's end comes before the end of time...

 As you turn away from the intensity of FallacyofUrist's dream, you see another dream, like your own, turning it's face away as well. You can see that it, too, saw the evil within and the flesh without, but you cannot not recognize it or find it afterward. You know that it's power - like yours - can never match the power of that beast. You do not have the strength to fight it, and any attempts you make to slay the MINOTAUR will be in vain.

 The power of dreams called to you, and you knew that one day, dreams would no longer be figments of the mind. In preparation, you trained your dreams to recognize other people's nightmares. Now, dreams have grown powerful, and you feel an evil dream becoming it's dreamer's master. You vow to find a way to destroy it! You too, feel your dream growing stronger within you, and it gives you the power you need to find the menace. Your dream becomes you and you become it. You are the Sorceress!
    ~~~
 You feel the dreams around you, and find a dream unlike the others'. It is so savage, so powerful, so... bold, that when you search for the one it hides inside, you are brought face-to-face with it as well. It stares at you unrecognizing, but you see what it is:
     

 You saw it when you slept, and heard it speaking in your mind. It's savage growls - you knew they were the cries of a beast yearning to be free. Now, when dreams have slipped into the waking hours, you can feel it's mind seeping into your flesh as its rage becoms your own...      ...At last, you enjoy the taste of freedom - you are chained no longer to the prison of the mind. Now, you can finally stalk the halls of the labyrinth until the end of time! You are the MINOTAUR!
    ~~~
 Your desire to kill calls to you in your bones. You may release this bloodthirst upon a helpless mortal, but at a price - along with the blood of the victim, your guise of humanity shall be shed as well. It would be best to save your horns for one whom is the most needing of them, lest you find your time's end comes before the end of time...

 As you turn away from the intensity of FallacyofUrist's dream, you see another dream, like your own, turning it's face away as well. You can see that it, too, saw the evil within and the flesh without, but you cannot not recognize it or find it afterward. You know that it's power - like yours - can never match the power of that beast. You do not have the strength to fight it, and any attempts you make to slay the MINOTAUR will be in vain.

 You have glimpsed many things in your dreams. You have seen the fabric of the world. You have known the true faces of men. You have witnessed this day - many, many times. You have known what would happen today, and have felt your dreams become restless as it came closer and closer. It told you an evil would awaken today, and you knew you had to find a way to destroy it. The day has come, and you dream in glimpses no more. Now, you see the truth in every moment. Now, you dream in every moment. Now, you are the Prophet.
    ~~~
 You can see what lies inside the minds of everyone. You know their names are no longer - their dreams have taken control, just as has yours. FallacyofUrist is the Minotaur, TheBiggerFish is the Sorceress, hector13 is the Champion, and Starver is the Sorcerer. Among them, you know hides a dream that burns with a fiery evil far more powerful than you. It will be of no use for you to strike against it...

 Your sleep always brought you dreams of greatness and glory. You knew you were destined to be a hero. As time went on, the dreams grew in power, and at last, you felt that they are a dream no more. Finally, you will slay an evil beast in a show of unmatched might! Armed with the power of the sword, you are the Champion!
    ~~~
 The glory of battle is surging in your bones, and you know you may strike forth and slay anyone. If you publicly cast the vote to kill another, you shall gloriously slay them at the day's end, striking them down with the power of justice!

Spoiler: Action Log (click to show/hide)

Night 1
FallacyofUrist kills hector13  (reveals role)

    ~~~

Spoiler: EPILOGUE (click to show/hide)

The man approached the patch of moonlight, and saw what lay there. Someone had placed a gramophone between the rails, and it played a song he had heard before:

  "...And I walk along darkened corridors," read the inscription on the labyrinth wall, faintly visible in the torchlight.

   "...I walk along darkened corridors," repeated the gramophone once more.

    "...And I walk along-" read the last line of the inscription. The Minotaur smiled. Only a few more words remained. Only a few more moments were left.

[Tomasque]

 The game is over. Feel free to chat while I tally the Victory Points.

[hector13]

I hope you won't hold it against me if I say "told you so" :p

Any particular reason you chose to kill me, FoU?

[Tomasque]

I've added together all the victory points, and I gotta say: these results are pretty interesting. Before I reveal them - who do you guys think won? 

[hector13]

We're all winners, man. We got to take part in this.