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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories  (Read 101873 times)

Quiet-Sun

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #75 on: February 01, 2016, 06:52:57 pm »

Then for the moment I will use CLA and Rally-Ho to define the standards since I know they are completely up to date
To clarify:

CLA creature graphics, as they are in the CLA graphic set thread, on Mediafire/dffd and presumably in fricy's repo are NOT up to date. They neither have definitions for the new creatures nor the corrected creature names for some old ones and there are consequently several creature graphics missing (new giant and men variants, Tigermen, etc).

The whole reason I didn't update them yet and the whole reason I am enthusiastic about this script is because I don't have time to do it manually and I have no way to automate it.

Ooops! then make that Rally-Ho for 42.05 and CLA for 40.24 



Can beastmen have all the professions available to dwarves and elves? or do they operate under a reduced set of professions?

Beastfolk and gorlaks can have any profession available to the civilization(s) they latch on to - which can be any civilization. Technically, so can elves, dwarves, humans, goblins, etc.

Plump Helmet Men can have any profession which doesn't require talking. (Not sure if worldgen respects this.)

So in Summary, any Dwarf, Elf, Human, Goblin, Kobold, Animal Person, and Gorlak can theoretically have any profession, and consequently a graphic assigned to it correct?

I'm going to use that as my working assumption.  We can trim things in a later pass.
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burned

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #76 on: February 01, 2016, 07:04:05 pm »

Can beastmen have all the professions available to dwarves and elves? or do they operate under a reduced set of professions?

Beastfolk and gorlaks can have any profession available to the civilization(s) they latch on to - which can be any civilization. Technically, so can elves, dwarves, humans, goblins, etc.

Plump Helmet Men can have any profession which doesn't require talking. (Not sure if worldgen respects this.)

So in Summary, any Dwarf, Elf, Human, Goblin, Kobold, Animal Person, and Gorlak can theoretically have any profession, and consequently a graphic assigned to it correct?


That's how I understand it, but I haven't actually been able to test this in game.

In the spoiler are the animal people I use. The adventurer mode tiles are easily verified. It's the fortress mode ones that allude me, since my visitors are normally the standard races (elf, goblin, human).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If anyone has a save that has these animal people available in their fort for testing, please share! I'd prefer a vanilla save, but as I've said elsewhere, I'll take what I can get to verify this.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #77 on: February 01, 2016, 07:28:07 pm »

In regards to testing, maybe a modded DF with elves, humans, goblins and kobolds removed would increase the chances of animal person visitors.
Similarly, wasn't there a way you could give a creature a natural talent/predisposition for a skill in the raws? Would that automatically make them display a profession graphic?
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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2016, 01:19:49 am »

Ok Guys.  Today I spent my time planning an not coding.  Animalmen and major races are significantly harder to conceptualize.   Here is what I'm going to do.  Based on Burned's list and the work that Telltale is doing in Mayday's thread, I made a list organizing all professions into groups with a default at the top.   Major races will have a tile for all professions in the list and beastmen will have tiles only for the defaults (the ones without tabs).  The remaining professions will pointing to the default tile in the text files.  If someone ever gets around to fleshing out a beastmen race we can turn it into a major race.  Let me know if you have comments or suggestions (for example if you think that a particular profession should belong in a different category).  I'll get back to coding :)   

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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burned

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2016, 07:52:22 am »

In regards to testing, maybe a modded DF with elves, humans, goblins and kobolds removed would increase the chances of animal person visitors.
Similarly, wasn't there a way you could give a creature a natural talent/predisposition for a skill in the raws? Would that automatically make them display a profession graphic?
That's a good idea and probably worth a shot.
I don't have the answers to your last two questions.

@Quiet-Sun

My list is combination of verified professions that have been present since 2D DF, additional ones that came in various updates, the old wiki discussion pages before CLA took on the momentous task of organizing it all into actual pages for the wiki, looking at other definition files, and guesswork. I have left professions that I have not been able to verify (and noted them as such), but that are referenced in various places. There are also professions that previously existed that I leave in because Toady has put back removed professions in the past.

Like a lot of things in DF, there are exceptions and odd inconsistency (e.g. ANIMATED and GHOST are "professions"). Tiles can be defined by not just creature or profession, but by skill or assigned job. For example, a unit's skill level means nothing if you assign them to be a TAVERN_KEEPER or the CAPTAIN_OF_THE_GUARD. On the other hand, someone in your military that is a MASTER_SWORDSMAN doesn't care that you assigned him to the crossbow squad and never allowed him to have a sword as part of his uniform. Until another weapon skill exceed his sword skill - he will still be a MASTER_SWORDSMAN with a crossbow in his hand. Also, a general set of skills will provide you the generic status, rather than a specific one.

From CLA, Rydel, to my own definitions - we all organized them in a way that made sense to us. They are the same definitions, so they all work (aside from the ones CLA mentioned so you have a test case for your script). Your organization is also based on a way that made sense to you. The problem is inexperience in knowing the exceptions and inconsistency. So based on what I've shared so far, here is what I see wrong with your list.

In several cases you listed a general skill as the "default" correctly, although not considered DEFAULT in game. In other cases you've listed the wrong profession as the default. For instance, while the average skill levels in a variety of related skills would produce a FARMER and ENGINEER, COOK and MECHANIC are specific skills levels respectively to those generics. Also, nobles are specific titles - there is no generic (unless they are not define per Rydel's info) and they have nothing to do with skill levels.

I don't follow why DUKE is the default in your list.  KING, KING_CONSORT, QUEEN_CONSORT don't exist as far as I know. They are covered by MONARCH and MONARCH_CONSORT. Again, I don't recall why I left QUEEN in there, because the elf QUEEN is the LEADER profession much like the PRINCESS position is actually defined by GENERAL for elves and I don't even see LEADER on your list. Nor do I see WARLORD or WARRIOR. And, PRIEST is not the default to DRUID - they are two different things.

PRISONER, COOK, MECHANIC, DOCTOR, DUKE, SHERIFF, MERCHANT and a few others are not default tiles. They are specific to those jobs/professions. MERCHANTS are not the default for DIPLOMAT or OUTPOST_LIAISON or SHOPKEEPER. PRISONER is not the default to SLAVE - again, these are different things in game.

Military: Aside from the assigned leadership positions - military tiles are based on skill level, much like ADVENTURER. And, ADVENTURER seems absent from your list entirely. DEFAULT, LAW_ENFORCE, TAX_ESCORT are assignments, SWORDSMAN and MASTER_SWORDSMAN are skill levels that exist together. Meaning you can have one tile for the DEFAULT WRESTLER that is completely different than the tile that represent the DEFAULT WRESTLER that is also LAW_ENFORCE.

I am sure there are more things I missed, but Rydel already pointed out that ALL profession defaults are DEFAULT.

Awhile back you said . . .

Since I'm so new to DF, I'm only familiarizing myself with the different sections so that's why I greatly appreciate your feedback.   

Look, I don't want you to think I'm being sarcastic again or condescending or whatever because I am clarifying what I see to be a lot of misunderstanding on your end. I don't have all the answers, but I do see problems with your list. Also, I am still unsure about a few things. Like, did you understand why the red tiles are a problem(?) or did you understand what CLA was asking in regards to writing a script for the graphic set page(?) - something I believe would have great value.

I hope this information is helpful.

As a random suggestion, treating the animal people like the standard races wouldn't hurt, since defining things that may or may not exist won't cause errors in DF.



« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 07:56:57 am by burned »
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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2016, 09:12:41 am »

As Burned mentioned, a lot of those "defaults" aren't actual defaults.  However, it would be possible to fake it when your script generates the text files for the graphics.

Take priests for instance:  If you wanted a race to use the same image for PRIEST, DRUID, HIGH_PRIEST, and ACOLYTE, you could put this:
[PRIEST:MyCreature:17:0:AS_IS:DEFAULT]
[DRUID:MyCreature:17:0:AS_IS:DEFAULT]
[HIGH_PRIEST:MyCreature:17:0:AS_IS:DEFAULT]
[ACOLYTE:MyCreature:17:0:AS_IS:DEFAULT]
Note how they all point to the same tile.

However, I'd recommend creating a full tile sheet for the race and just using this when a profession doesn't have an image.  That way, if a graphics set has images for a specific job, it won't remove those images.

A few other notes:
* As burned pointed out KING and QUEEN as well as KING_CONSORT and QUEEN_CONSORT have been merged to create MONARCH and MONARCH_CONSORT
* You are missing ADVENTURER graphics.  These will default (actual defaulting, not using tile pointing) to the :DEFAULT version if it isn't defined, but some graphic sets may create these manually.
* PRIEST is listed twice
* Noble and appointed positions can have different names for different entities.  I think Humans have CHIEF_MEDICAL_HUMAN instead of CHIEF_MEDICAL_DWARF.  Just something to be aware of.

CLA

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2016, 09:40:37 am »

I think at this point we do too much designing and too much optimizing too early. We should factor out problems and roadblocks for now and just get a working, simple script soon. So, I believe we would benefit from separating this whole task in piecemeals:


  • A1: make a script for creatures (including civilized creatures) only. in other words, exclude professions and positions for now. Only default, child, baby, animated, ghost. No fancy empty-tile solutions, and usability improvements. just leave them empty. Comment out "empty creatures" and ignore ADD_COLOR fringe cases, just use AS_IS.
  • A2: test, verify, make sure it works. Publish.
1st Milestone. Next:
  • B1: take care of surrounding infrastructure and environment: how to integrate with github, how to maintain, clear up responsibilities, develop a workflow
  • B2: get feedback from other graphic pack artists, pack maintainers, end users, etc. Get people to work with the script.
  • B3: integrate feedback, resolve problems, streamline
2nd Milestone. Only then we
  • C1: develop solution for professions and military
  • C2: integrate with existing stuff
  • repeat B
3rd Milestone. And finally.
  • D1: repeat B/C for positions
  • D2: merge everything

Instead of grinding our teeth on making a wholesome script from the beginning, and burning out everyones energy and interest. I think this gives us more time (and maybe more people) to research positions and professions, and Quiet-Sun has a more reasonable sequence to get familiar with DF and the whole process without being weighted down by unsolved problems. Furthermore, this would open up the whole idea to more people earlier and give us a broader test-case environment.
Worst case, we have a script for creatures only that might or might not get expanded in the future. Best case, we have a solid base to slowly expand.
Right now, the worst case is endless development hell as we stumble upon problem after problem and never get anything finished.



Additionally, I suggest the graphic set talk page as place to collect all information, validated or speculative, about professions, positions, and priorities. It's all too easy to overlook good information buried in posts that discuss 3 different topics with 2 different people via 10 different quotes.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2016, 12:00:04 pm »

Can beastmen have all the professions available to dwarves and elves? or do they operate under a reduced set of professions?

Beastfolk and gorlaks can have any profession available to the civilization(s) they latch on to - which can be any civilization. Technically, so can elves, dwarves, humans, goblins, etc.

Plump Helmet Men can have any profession which doesn't require talking. (Not sure if worldgen respects this.)

So in Summary, any Dwarf, Elf, Human, Goblin, Kobold, Animal Person, and Gorlak can theoretically have any profession, and consequently a graphic assigned to it correct?

Not kobolds, not without modding. [UTTERANCES] prevents them from joining non-[UTTERANCES] civs.

The easiest way to test animal person profession graphics would be to change the species of the MOUNTAIN entity to the species you want to test, generate a test world, and embark with beastfolk of 7 professions at a time. (Though I believe with DFHack you can increase your embarkation party number, so if you use a version with a working DFHack you could get a full compliment of professions in a single embark.)
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Quiet-Sun

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2016, 01:43:11 pm »

Thank you guys.  I'm not going to use quotes this time  but this is a response to @Burned, @Rydel and @CLA

I think that a lot of the issues arise from my use of the word DEFAULT because it is used extensively by DF.  When I said DEFAULT, I really meant a DEFAULT-VISUAL-QUEUE that has nothing to do with the inner workings of DF.  The goal of my grouping is to optimize the information that the player can grasp from the UI, but do so using only tokens that exist in DF.  When looking at these groups remember that if a tile exists for any of the professions in the list it will be used (if not, ONLY ITS APPEARANCE will be defaulted to the one at the top of the list). 

 My reasoning behind all this is:  Right now people only started to make art for beastmen.  By defining a prioritized set of tiles we provide a framework for artists to maximize the impact of their work (this is all inspired by the work of Telltale).   It is much better to have a basic set of 15 tiles for every beastrace (packing the greatest amount of visual information for the player) than 300 different tiles for a single race.  However, to reiterate my point, if a tile exists it will be used (no tile left behind!).

Let me give you an example.  Here is an excerpt from Burned's txt definitions:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And here one from Rally-Ho's
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Pay close attention at the way Rydel and Burned are grouping their professions.   This grouping is completely irrelevant and transparent from DF's point of view, but highlights the way we humans like to streamline concepts so that we can manage things better.

Now look at mine:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My list contains the very same number of professions (grouped almost the same way).  The only difference is that I'm picking one profession from each group to work as DEFAULT-VISUAL-QUEUE  and title of the group (instead of a comment that DF doesn't read).  I'm simply formalizing what Rydel, Burned, and Telltale, (and all humans I would argue) naturally do.

Now, this is a very subjective choice and its highly constrained by the professions that exist in the game.  I would have preferred to use NOBLE or LEADER (as Burned, and Telltale do) instead of DUKE, but neither NOBLE nor LEADER are true professions so I picked DUKE because it seemed to me more universally applicable than MONARCH.



The other thing that I wanted to address is what defines a profession.  I agree with CLA that the best venue for such a discussion is the WIKI.  My working assumption from now on is that the wiki has up-to-date information.   If there is a problem with my profession list, then it means we need to fix it first in the wiki.  Now all this speculation would be over if Toady would simply include a complete list in the raws.  That would make our lives so much easier!  Is anyone here his friend? can we make a request for this information for future versions of DF?



Finally I want to agree with CLA that it's better to have a fully working published version, than strive for perfection on the first try.  However, I do think that so far we have been moving forward at a very good pace and all this discussion is very valuable for me.  It helps me understand how the game works better and polishes our ideas, so please keep your feedback going (including potential problems).  I'm good at making design decisions and turning up a working product so more feedback is better than less.



SOMETHING I COULD USE FEEDBACK WITH:

Working within my design concept, would you think than any profession would belong better in a different group?  Here is the latest version with adventurer tags (I seem to recall that adventurers can only have the military types):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 01:44:46 pm by Quiet-Sun »
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Rydel

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2016, 02:33:09 pm »

Ah, I see what you were getting at now.  Yeah, the many uses of Default were causing confusion.

I think the reason that there isn't a list of professions included is that a lot of them are defined in the entity raws.  So, if someone mods in a new civilization, that can easily introduce a bunch of new professions.

Looking over your list, everything seems well placed.  My gut says Alchemist should probably go somewhere else, but I can't see any place it fits better, so I'd leave it as-is.

burned

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #85 on: February 03, 2016, 05:14:03 am »

I don't care how you organize them. DF doesn't care how you organize them.

From CLA, Rydel, to my own definitions - we all organized them in a way that made sense to us. They are the same definitions, so they all work (aside from the ones CLA mentioned so you have a test case for your script). Your organization is also based on a way that made sense to you.

~~~~

Anyway . . .

When I said DEFAULT, I really meant a DEFAULT-VISUAL-QUEUE that has nothing to do with the inner workings of DF.  The goal of my grouping is to optimize the information that the player can grasp from the UI, but do so using only tokens that exist in DF. . . .
&
The only difference is that I'm picking one profession from each group to work as DEFAULT-VISUAL-QUEUE  and title of the group (instead of a comment that DF doesn't read).  I'm simply formalizing what Rydel, Burned, and Telltale, (and all humans I would argue) naturally do.

Your use of the word default was confusing, but if you're going to present a standard template that more than one person is going to use why not just use notes? I can easily look at Rydel's and understand his format as I'm sure he understood mine, because notes.


When looking at these groups remember that if a tile exists for any of the professions in the list it will be used (if not, ONLY ITS APPEARANCE will be defaulted to the one at the top of the list).

Do you mean that you're going to change vanilla behavior by having the tile "default" to something that is created to substitute something that is not? Meaning if you don't have a CHAMPION or an EXPEDITION_LEADER or whatever they will default to the SHERIFF? If so, why? One of the benefits of a graphic set is to parse the information without using "K" in fort mode or "L" in adventure mode. A visual glance of who is who and what is what. What's the point if your DIPLOMAT and OUTPOST_LIAISON look like MERCHANTS?

Leave it as is. This allows people to see the holes in sets and doesn't introduced, "Why does this DRUID look like a PRIEST?" or worse, "Why doesn't this graphic set work? The tiles are all wrong!"

I hope that I completely misunderstood what you meant.

~~~~

Regarding your list, these are still present regardless of what you meant by default.

. . . KING, KING_CONSORT, QUEEN_CONSORT don't exist as far as I know. They are covered by MONARCH and MONARCH_CONSORT. Again, I don't recall why I left QUEEN in there, because the elf QUEEN is the LEADER profession much like the PRINCESS position is actually defined by GENERAL for elves and I don't even see LEADER on your list. Nor do I see WARLORD or WARRIOR."

~~~~

"I would have preferred to use NOBLE or LEADER (as Burned, and Telltale do) instead of DUKE, but neither NOBLE nor LEADER are true professions"

While I oppose the idea of introducing a new type of "default" . . .

. . .the elf QUEEN is the LEADER profession . . .

~~~~

Now all this speculation would be over if Toady would simply include a complete list in the raws.  That would make our lives so much easier!  Is anyone here his friend? can we make a request for this information for future versions of DF?

I did send Toady an email hoping it was a quick addition to the arena like the north/south pole was to advanced world gen, but I don't expect him to drop everything to put it in there, especially if it's more complicated than just adding the poles.

~~~~

I think at this point we do too much designing and too much optimizing too early. We should factor out problems and roadblocks for now and just get a working, simple script soon.

<task list>

Instead of grinding our teeth on making a wholesome script from the beginning, and burning out everyones energy and interest. I think this gives us more time (and maybe more people) to research positions and professions, and Quiet-Sun has a more reasonable sequence to get familiar with DF and the whole process without being weighted down by unsolved problems. Furthermore, this would open up the whole idea to more people earlier and give us a broader test-case environment.
Worst case, we have a script for creatures only that might or might not get expanded in the future. Best case, we have a solid base to slowly expand.
Right now, the worst case is endless development hell as we stumble upon problem after problem and never get anything finished.

@CLA You're right and your task list is sound.

@Quiet-Sun I still have no idea what's going on with the red tiles or if a script for the graphic set page is possible or whether that new "default" even makes sense. However, I'm not going to comb through another list of yours to see if it's correct. The entire point, I thought, was to automate the process which in turn would solve the existing problems in the repo as it is right now instead of manually updating each set.

I sincerely appreciate the effort you are putting into this, but I feel it's a tangent overlooking the current problems of the repo and possibly just adding new ones. I would suggest using CLA's task list as a starting point and ignore everything else, because I'd love to see what you can come up with in the end.
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Quiet-Sun

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2016, 11:42:48 am »


@Quiet-Sun I still have no idea what's going on with the red tiles or if a script for the graphic set page is possible or whether that new "default" even makes sense. However, I'm not going to comb through another list of yours to see if it's correct. The entire point, I thought, was to automate the process which in turn would solve the existing problems in the repo as it is right now instead of manually updating each set.

I sincerely appreciate the effort you are putting into this, but I feel it's a tangent overlooking the current problems of the repo and possibly just adding new ones. I would suggest using CLA's task list as a starting point and ignore everything else, because I'd love to see what you can come up with in the end.

All tasks I'm doing are tied together.  You will see a completely automatic standardizing and updating script this week.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2016, 03:33:29 pm »

Guys I wanted to let you know something I just discovered.  I think all valid professions and positions can already be found within the last DF builds!  If you check the graphics_example.txt you will see the following text:

40.24:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

42.05:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Note how the new professions in 42.05 are appended at the bottom of the profession list below MASTER_LASHER.  Also the wording really makes it sound like an official list. What do you think?

EDIT:  What I don't understand is what is meant by "...but you should include all seven of these for a given creature..."  Which "these" can they be referring to?

« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:38:44 pm by Quiet-Sun »
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burned

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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #88 on: February 03, 2016, 04:41:57 pm »

The graphics_example.txt is incomplete.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« Reply #89 on: February 03, 2016, 04:57:30 pm »

The graphics_example.txt is incomplete.

It is :( sorry.   I was so happy for a second.  There are lots of professions in the entity_default.txt that are not in there.  Oh well
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