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[Meph]

Also, I think it would cause blank sprites if one graphics set has hunting/war sprites for an animal but another does not.

It would crash at worldgen. If a graphics file directs to an image that does not exist, the game crashes to desktop.

I think it might not crash if the graphics are for creatures that do not exist in the game.

This is fine. Graphics yes, creature no = no problem.

[jecowa]

Sorry, I didn't say it very well. Missing PNG files don't make the game freeze or crash if those PNGs were only needed for creatures that don't exist in the game.

I think it doesn't cause a crash to have "graphics_*.txt" files with missing PNG files, if they are for a creatures that aren't in the /raw/objects/.

[jecowa]

I'm having a problem with Mayday. I need to balance having editable versions for graphics authors with having low-disk space versions for inclusion in distributed packs.

I want to move all of Mayday's uncompressed editable graphics to something like a "dev" folder in the root directory and replace them with compressed flattened versions. Eventually I'd probably want to do something like this with other packs and would like to have a consistently-named folder in every pack to make it easy for script users to remove this folder automatically.

Is this okay to do? If so, any opinions on what the folder should be called?

[PeridexisErrant]

Sounds good.  "source" is a traditional name, and add a source/README.md file that explains how to convert the source to output version.

[jecowa]

It's not saving as much space as I thought it would. Every bit helps, though, I guess.

New flat compressed graphics:	2.3 MB (1.3 MB zipped)
Old uncompressed graphics:	5.9 MB (4.6 MB zipped)

Note: 1 MB = 1000000 bytes

add a source/README.md file that explains how to convert the source to output version.

I don't know if that's necessary. There are flat versions ready for distribution in the normal locations. To turn the layered versions into flat versions, you just have a graphics program flatten the layers. That would probably happen anyone to someone editing those files who wasn't aware that they had layers. Edit: Just thought of something to write there that should be helpful for graphics artists.

To make this ready for a pack, just delete the "source" folder and it should be ready-to-go.

[Dirst]

Is there any working standard for including graphics extensions?  I have done a spectacularly bad job of imitating the art styles of three graphics packs, and would like to slip these into the next release of my mod (in addition to any other unwise extensions between now and when PyLNP officially supports the standard).

Default (32x32)


DungeonSet (24x24)


GemSet (24x24)


CLA (18x18)


GemSet and CLA may be nigh-invisible in the forum's light color scheme.

Edit: Corrected one image.

[jecowa]

Those look good, Dirst.

Mods don't have graphics support yet in PyLNP. The best method at this point is to install the mod graphics into the graphics packs. Note that installing mods removes the graphics folders, so you will have to go back to the Graphics tab and double-click on the graphics pack you want to use after installing a mod.

[jecowa]

The default tile for Display Cases seems good. (It uses the Bookcase tile.) But for the more graphical packs, it might be a good idea to switch the tile for Pedestal. I'm thinking about changing the Pedestal on the graphical packs to lowercase "i" for now, then if we ever get custom graphics for them, we can set TwbT Overrides for them in the future.

These are the one's that could benefit from a different tile for the Pedestal:

• Afro
• Ironhand
• Mayday
• Obsidian
• Phoebus
• Rally Ho!
• Spacefox

Or maybe it doesn't matter so much what the Pedestal looks like since you only really see it when it's empty?

[CLA]

Are there no free tiles left in the tilesets? Or is the issue just that there is no graphical tile for them yet?

[jecowa]

Both. There's was never any extra space on the main tilesheet. It's always been a balancing act there. I haven't drawn anything for any of these yet. The chair being shaped like a little stool might make it a good fallback tile for the pedestal for people playing without TwbT, but then that would make it easy to get confused with real chairs. Maybe the pedestal is important enough as a decorative item to get its own tile on the main tilesheet? I wouldn't really know what to move around, though, and I'm not much of an artist.

The flask (n6) might make an okay pedestal in Phoebus, Mayday, Ironhand, and Afro.

Spoiler: Phoebus (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Mayday (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Ironhand (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Afro (click to show/hide)

Maybe tile e16 in Rally Ho! and Obsidian

Spoiler: Rally Ho! (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Obsidian (click to show/hide)

And maybe tile m6 in Spacefox

Spoiler: Spacefox (click to show/hide)

[Ultimuh]

Just waiting for one of these to update.
I prefer playing with a tile/graphics set rather than plain ASCII.

[jecowa]

Spacefox has a Pedestal graphic and Dwarf sprites for the new professions thanks to Nopal and CLA.

These ones all have tiles set for the new Pedestal but don't have graphics for the v0.44 professions:

 * Mayday
 * Phoebus
 * Ironhand

[jecowa]

Having separate versions of files for TWBT and non-TWBT installs is becoming more important what with TWBT multi-layer rendering on the main tilesheet and TWBT unit transparency on the creature graphics.

Spoiler: quote jecows (click to show/hide)

Right now a graphics pack is laid out like this:

• data
  • art
  • init
• manifest.json
• raws
  • graphics
  • objects

I was thinking of laying them out something like this:

• data
  • art
  • init (TWBT Overrides)
  • init (Vanilla - no Overrides)
• manifest.json
• raws
  • graphics
  • objects (TWBT Overrides)
  • objects (Vanilla - no Overrides)

For manual installation, the user should see that there's a choice to be made while copying over the files and the descriptive folder names should help with the decision. Maybe there could be a readme.txt file too with installation instructions and an expanded explanation of the TWBT overrides choice.

For PyLNP installation, it should probably default to the TWBT version if DFHack is enabled and TWBT is installed, and use the non-TWBT version otherwise. When the user switches Print Mode and causes TWBT to be enabled or disabled, then the folders would get swapped out. And then maybe there could also be a button to switch to the non-TWBT versions even when TWBT is enabled.

That would break the desirable property that copying graphics over a DF install correctly installs the graphics - we want them to be very simple to do manually or automatically.

An alternative approach (which I prefer) would be to add "twbt_data" and "raw/twbt_objects" folders, and copy them over the non-twbt pack if TwbT is enabled.  Regardless, any further discussion should happen in the DFgraphics thread, as it's not really about the Starter Pack.

This layout sounds good. Maybe a "twbt_data" folder and a "twbt_raw" folder so that it can have separate creature graphics too. I'm working on TWBT creature graphics right now.

Some data in case you are worried about the additional creature graphics taking up too much space. (tl;dr - I would guess they would make a LNP with all the graphics packs take up less than 5 more MB in total.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Current space used by creature graphics PNG files in packs that would need separate TWBT versions:

Afro	0.5 MB
AutoReiv	0 - uses same creature graphics for both TWBT and non-TWBT versions
CLA	0 - does not have a TWBT version, but creature graphics would be the same in both versions if it did
DragonMaster	0.6 MB
DungeonSet	no non-TWBT version so doesn't need duplication, but if it did it would be 13.6 MB (2.8 MB compressed)
GemSet	0 - uses same creature graphics in both versions
Ironhand	0.7 MB
Jolly Bastion	0 - no creature graphics
Mayday	2.4 MB (1.3 MB compressed)
Meph	no non-TWBT version, so doesn't need duplicate graphics
Obisidian	0.7 MB
Phoebus	0.5 MB
Rally Ho!	0.5 MB
Spacefox	0.7 MB
Taffer	0 - same creature graphics in both versions
Tergel	0 - same creature graphics in both versions
Wanderlust	0 - same creature graphics in both versions

In total, the additional creature graphics with in the graphics packs above would make a pack up to 5 MB heavier with compression in Mayday. The TWBT-versions of the creature graphics PNG files are also likely to be a little lighter than the non-TWBT versions that include backgrounds. I just tested with an Ironhand tile sheet and the TWBT version was less than half the size.

Also, it might be worth mentioning that excluding the dwarf graphics, Phoebus, Obsidian, and Dragonmaster would share the creature graphics in TWBt version. And I think the Mayday creature graphics are pretty much a superset of those and contains a bunch of additional creature person graphics from Tallcastle.

Edit: finished Ironhand creatures. The Ironhand TWBT creature graphics are less than 0.3 MB. Old ones were around 0.7 MB.

[Meph]

Curious thing I noticed about the creature file space.

The new -bg file is only black and white, mostly transparent. The original file suddenly has a lot more transparency instead of solid colors. This lead to a file-size reduction in the latter, that makes up for the file-size of the new file.

Example: My original creature_domestic was 100kb... now, with transparency it's only 31kb, plus 7kb for the -bg file.

In addition to that, most tileset authors can save about 50% size on all creature graphics by removing the war/hunting versions. Most sets I've seen just brute-force that, make a war/hunting version for every creature... but only 22 creatures out of 767 are actually trainable.

[jecowa]

In addition to that, most tileset authors can save about 50% size on all creature graphics by removing the war/hunting versions. Most sets I've seen just brute-force that, make a war/hunting version for every creature... but only 22 creatures out of 767 are actually trainable.

Thanks for the info! I was trying to figure out how you determined which animals were trainable and found 3 tags: [TRAINABLE], [TRAINABLE_WAR], and [TRAINABLE_HUNTING]. These are the 22 creatures with those tags:

[TRAINABLE] (trainable for war or hunting):

1.	DOG	creature_domestic.txt
2.	BEAR_GRIZZLY	creature_large_temperate.txt
3.	PANDA, GIGANTIC	creature_large_temperate.txt
4.	ELEPHANT	creature_large_tropical.txt
5.	LION	creature_large_tropical.txt
6.	LEOPARD	creature_large_tropical.txt
7.	JAGUAR	creature_large_tropical.txt
8.	TIGER	creature_large_tropical.txt
9.	CHEETAH	creature_large_tropical.txt
10.	MANDRILL	creature_large_tropical.txt
11.	GORILLA	creature_large_tropical.txt
12.	BEAR_POLAR	creature_large_tundra.txt
13.	JABBERER	creature_next_underground.txt
14.	CAVE_DRAGON	creature_next_underground.txt
15.	DRAGON	creature_standard.txt
16.	BIRD_ROC	creature_standard.txt
17.	BOBCAT	creature_temperate_new.txt
18.	OCELOT	creature_tropical_new.txt
19.	LYNX	creature_tundra_taiga_new.txt

[TRAINABLE_HUNTING]:

20.	BAT_GIANT	creature_subterranean.txt
21.	BIRD_SWALLOW_CAVE_GIANT	creature_subterranean.txt

[TRAINABLE_WAR]:

22.

RHINOCEROS

creature_large_tropical.txt

With only 20 creatures trainable for war and 21 trainable for hunting, it's quite a bit more be feasible to give them more than an icon. Maybe a piece of armor for war animals and a scarf for hunting animals?

Edit: With the tag inheriting thing, maybe the _giant and _man versions could also be trainable?