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[hector13]

@BHK & Reverie: Same roles, huh?

And yeah, I was lying. I'm a survivor.

I note you suggested the mayor may have been a survivor yesterday.

Also, bit bizarre that two people have claimed the exact same role. I imagine tomorrow we're going to have one or both say the other is lying.

[Reverie]

Hold on. I'm not the only one in a role pair. Deus Asmoth and NQT seem to both have cop(?) roles, both wanting to remove the mayor and chase criminals. Could it be that you guys have the same ability? Is this game symmetric?

[origamiscienceguy]

Day 2 Votecount
Fillipk (0)
 Deus Asmoth (0)
TheDarkStar (0)
Hector13 (0)
TheMoonlitShadow (4): Revarie, NotQuiteThere, BlackHeartKebal, TheDarkStar
Reverie (0)
BlackHeartKabal (0)
NotQuiteThere (0)

Not Voting: Fillipk, Deus Asmoth, Hector13, TheMoonlitShadow.

Day 2 will end on Tuesday at 9:00PM

6 votes required to shorten.

[hector13]

Hold on. I'm not the only one in a role pair. Deus Asmoth and NQT seem to both have cop(?) roles, both wanting to remove the mayor and chase criminals. Could it be that you guys have the same ability? Is this game symmetric?

Ah... Do explain your knowledge on NQT and DA's roles. They've said they're looking for criminals as part of their wincon, does this make them cop, in the traditional mafia investigative ability sense? You and BHK claimed the exact same role, as well as alignment.

I've already said what my wincon is, you can check it if with your claimed ability if you want. I don't think it's odd you have the same wincon. I think 5 people have claimed that particular wincon. I think it's odd you both claimed the same role.


TDS

Moonlit Shadow it is, then.

This is a bandwagoning vote, far as I'm concerned. Why are you voting Moonlit?

[Reverie]

Hold on. I'm not the only one in a role pair. Deus Asmoth and NQT seem to both have cop(?) roles, both wanting to remove the mayor and chase criminals. Could it be that you guys have the same ability? Is this game symmetric?

Ah... Do explain your knowledge on NQT and DA's roles. They've said they're looking for criminals as part of their wincon, does this make them cop, in the traditional mafia investigative ability sense? You and BHK claimed the exact same role, as well as alignment.

I've already said what my wincon is, you can check it if with your claimed ability if you want. I don't think it's odd you have the same wincon. I think 5 people have claimed that particular wincon. I think it's odd you both claimed the same role.

I've only extrapolated that if they'd have an ability it'd be in the same vein as their claimed wincon, perhaps also in a pair. And yes, it's super-weird that there appears to be more than one of the same info role. And no, it wouldn't be symmetrical if the pairs didn't have opposing wincons, so I got a bit ahead of myself there.

[notquitethere]

@DA and NQT: Can you confirm this?

If/When I flip it'll be obvious what I mean, but I'm not going to claim my role at this early stage. DA might be lying about his wincon to echo my own, but if he's telling the truth we could have role symmetry of some kind.

[hector13]

The issue with assuming the role symmetry thing is that you have to assume at least two (perhaps three) people are being honest.

Not sure I'm willing to do that in a game of mafia, especially regarding claims on D2...

Anyway, I'm curious how we make the game symmetrical with an odd number of players. Perhaps one of you old bastards more experienced players could explain?

[Reverie]

Obviously, the odd one out would the mayor.

There are implications with this pairing theory though, such as the presence of a second doctor (which would be even stranger than two info roles). I can't imagine how that would be balanced, except maybe with perfect symmetry.

Spoiler: SPECULATION AHEAD, feel free to skip, here there be wine! (click to show/hide)

If perfect symmetry is the case, either BlackHeartKabal or I are lying about the particulars of our wincon and how we treat the election system. This hints at the possibility that members of town that happen to support the reelection can phone in for the mayoral position to preserve their wincon. NQT and Deus can easily be exact copies of each other (role and wincon) due to apparent indifference of the mayoral system. Since they are both hunting a criminal, there would be hunting separate criminals to preserve symmetry.

Here is how the setup  looks in my head:
(Mayor)→(Criminal)x2→(Third Party/Cop)x2→(Lie Detector)x2→(Doctor)x2

Green text is town for sure, split in half by loyalists and anarchists. Loyalists might be our potential future mayors. Orange text is for the criminals NQT and Deus are after. They might otherwise be town with a dressed-up win condition, or more likely the scumteam our doctors counter. And then we have the mysterious NQT and Deus themselves, who might be town with a specialised win condition, in blue. Since there is no mention of criminals anywhere else but in their wincons, I'll hazard to guess they'll have a way to apprehend the criminals in a way that won't be devastating to town if they guessed wrong. Two vigilante killers would be impossible for town.

So, if we consider NQT and Deus town, that's six townies (otherwise four townies and two third party, less likely), two criminals (scumteam), and the mayor (who in this setup might just be a figurehead and not exactly dangerous, to balance against the criminals).

As an aside, we can't count on everyone telling the truth. In all probability, I am wildly wrong, but it's interesting to guess how symmetry could work. The biggest gap in all of this is how the mayor and the criminals and our win condition all tie together to form a cohesive whole. My guesses here are far from elegant.

[fillipk]

Obviously, the odd one out would the mayor.

There are implications with this pairing theory though, such as the presence of a second doctor (which would be even stranger than two info roles). I can't imagine how that would be balanced, except maybe with perfect symmetry.

Spoiler: SPECULATION AHEAD, feel free to skip, here there be wine! (click to show/hide)

If perfect symmetry is the case, either BlackHeartKabal or I are lying about the particulars of our wincon and how we treat the election system. This hints at the possibility that members of town that happen to support the reelection can phone in for the mayoral position to preserve their wincon. NQT and Deus can easily be exact copies of each other (role and wincon) due to apparent indifference of the mayoral system. Since they are both hunting a criminal, there would be hunting separate criminals to preserve symmetry.

Here is how the setup  looks in my head:
(Mayor)→(Criminal)x2→(Third Party/Cop)x2→(Lie Detector)x2→(Doctor)x2

Green text is town for sure, split in half by loyalists and anarchists. Loyalists might be our potential future mayors. Orange text is for the criminals NQT and Deus are after. They might otherwise be town with a dressed-up win condition, or more likely the scumteam our doctors counter. And then we have the mysterious NQT and Deus themselves, who might be town with a specialised win condition, in blue. Since there is no mention of criminals anywhere else but in their wincons, I'll hazard to guess they'll have a way to apprehend the criminals in a way that won't be devastating to town if they guessed wrong. Two vigilante killers would be impossible for town.

So, if we consider NQT and Deus town, that's six townies (otherwise four townies and two third party, less likely), two criminals (scumteam), and the mayor (who in this setup might just be a figurehead and not exactly dangerous, to balance against the criminals).

As an aside, we can't count on everyone telling the truth. In all probability, I am wildly wrong, but it's interesting to guess how symmetry could work. The biggest gap in all of this is how the mayor and the criminals and our win condition all tie together to form a cohesive whole. My guesses here are far from elegant.

Interesting theory but my role is a watcher tracker hybrid that doesn't give me specifics.

Reverie

As for removing potential candidates before tackling the mayor, I disagree. I want to see how this thing ticks, and the most radical thing we can do to make that happen is to do away with the mayor. And I am like 80% sure I know who the mayor is.

This quote makes me think you are a candidate and you want to remove the mayor before searching for more candidates, or you just want to get a lynch train going so no one looks more closely at you.  Also, in your setup you place both lie detectors as town which is probably something you will check at night, but it's weird that you would immediately put that role as town.

[Reverie]

Reverie

As for removing potential candidates before tackling the mayor, I disagree. I want to see how this thing ticks, and the most radical thing we can do to make that happen is to do away with the mayor. And I am like 80% sure I know who the mayor is.

This quote makes me think you are a candidate and you want to remove the mayor before searching for more candidates, or you just want to get a lynch train going so no one looks more closely at you.  Also, in your setup you place both lie detectors as town which is probably something you will check at night, but it's weird that you would immediately put that role as town.

Wait, really? You actually want to keep the mayor alive? You're going to have to explain that to me, because it sounds awfully like you're affiliated with him if you're not okay with blowing this wide open the way I'm suggesting. Killing him is the surest bet at getting new info. That D1 lynch was very underwhelming, and I'm not satisfied with picking off whoever may or may not be candidates. Hell, if there is a scumteam, we're doing them a favour! I can't stress enough, we need info more than anything.

Also, I can't even recall a game where scum had an info role. I suppose it would be within the realm of weird a bastard game entails, but scum have the benefit of knowing who they are and who they're against. I doubt this would be the case.

[fillipk]

Ah Filipk. With my role, I think there might be a reason you don't want me dead.

UnvoteTell me right now, because right now this just proves to me you are scum TheMoonlitShadow

[fillipk]

Reverie

As for removing potential candidates before tackling the mayor, I disagree. I want to see how this thing ticks, and the most radical thing we can do to make that happen is to do away with the mayor. And I am like 80% sure I know who the mayor is.

This quote makes me think you are a candidate and you want to remove the mayor before searching for more candidates, or you just want to get a lynch train going so no one looks more closely at you.  Also, in your setup you place both lie detectors as town which is probably something you will check at night, but it's weird that you would immediately put that role as town.

Wait, really? You actually want to keep the mayor alive? You're going to have to explain that to me, because it sounds awfully like you're affiliated with him if you're not okay with blowing this wide open the way I'm suggesting. Killing him is the surest bet at getting new info. That D1 lynch was very underwhelming, and I'm not satisfied with picking off whoever may or may not be candidates. Hell, if there is a scumteam, we're doing them a favour! I can't stress enough, we need info more than anything.

Also, I can't even recall a game where scum had an info role. I suppose it would be within the realm of weird a bastard game entails, but scum have the benefit of knowing who they are and who they're against. I doubt this would be the case.

Fair enough, but I'm willing to guess that once we get the mayor that it will go straight to picking a new one the day after.

[origamiscienceguy]

Also OSG: Is there no roleflip for dead guys?

What you see is what you get.

[hector13]

Moonlit

Ah Filipk. With my role, I think there might be a reason you don't want me dead.

Considering you've claimed survivor, why should someone else - especially a claimed townie - worry about your continued existence?


Fillipk

Ah Filipk. With my role, I think there might be a reason you don't want me dead.

UnvoteTell me right now, because right now this just proves to me you are scum TheMoonlitShadow

Perhaps you'd like to explain the bolded part, for those of us who are not clairvoyant?

[hector13]

No one's gonna outright claim a third party.

I'm a survivor.

Er...

...

... Anyway, Moonlit, I note you didn't answer my question. I didn't ask you to reveal your role name, I asked you why anyone other than you should be worried about your survival.

No need to be coy. You are up for the chop, after all.