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[MidnightJaguar]

What does the crystalline projector look like?
On the subject of the crystalline grenade, since I can't mess with the ammo itself due to the black box nature of it, could I instead just take a bunch of aster ex and stick it to one side of a crystalline projector ammo clip so that when the aster ex explodes it shoots all of the seed crystals at once?

Hmm well you could but that would probably just blow up the seed crystals.

Could the amount of crystals that survive be determined by an uncon roll?
((Just tell me if this is getting annoying and I'll stop.))

[AoshimaMichio]

ask for a pocket dimension to test within other universe's.

if you can generate a stable doorway you can pull out infinite reaction mass, and it breaks down really quickly so it wont leave any pollution or radiation behind.

Not a bad idea!

Hey pw, do pocket dimensions seem to work in other universes? And could they be used to create infinite reaction mass, or do they become unstable once too much material is pulled out and not replaced?

I bet answer is: Why don't you try it?

[Radio Controlled]

ask for a pocket dimension to test within other universe's.

if you can generate a stable doorway you can pull out infinite reaction mass, and it breaks down really quickly so it wont leave any pollution or radiation behind.

Not a bad idea!

Hey pw, do pocket dimensions seem to work in other universes? And could they be used to create infinite reaction mass, or do they become unstable once too much material is pulled out and not replaced?

I bet answer is: Why don't you try it?

Because I'm on mission!

[piecewise]

Failing? Depends on your definition.

Failing to operate as designed.

...well, yes. See, a grenade that explodes in your hand is still technically doing what it's designed to do in a way.

ask for a pocket dimension to test within other universe's.

if you can generate a stable doorway you can pull out infinite reaction mass, and it breaks down really quickly so it wont leave any pollution or radiation behind.

Not a bad idea!

Hey pw, do pocket dimensions seem to work in other universes? And could they be used to create infinite reaction mass, or do they become unstable once too much material is pulled out and not replaced?

Hasn't been tried, but the difficulty is less "do they work" it's more "where can we put the anchoring machine once we leave this universe?"

because it works as long as the anchor is here, otherwise we don't know and probably not.

What does the crystalline projector look like?
On the subject of the crystalline grenade, since I can't mess with the ammo itself due to the black box nature of it, could I instead just take a bunch of aster ex and stick it to one side of a crystalline projector ammo clip so that when the aster ex explodes it shoots all of the seed crystals at once?

Hmm well you could but that would probably just blow up the seed crystals.

Could the amount of crystals that survive be determined by an uncon roll?
((Just tell me if this is getting annoying and I'll stop.))

No.

[Radio Controlled]

Hasn't been tried, but the difficulty is less "do they work" it's more "where can we put the anchoring machine once we leave this universe?"

because it works as long as the anchor is here, otherwise we don't know and probably not.

So as long as you have the 'anchoring machine' inside the universe you're in (and assuming said universe isn't null or anything) then whatever tech behind it should work, meaning you can use them?

What is the size of such an anchoring machine? Small enough to be transported with our current EUE? And could an anchor be transported in parts and assembled on-site?

[piecewise]

Hasn't been tried, but the difficulty is less "do they work" it's more "where can we put the anchoring machine once we leave this universe?"

because it works as long as the anchor is here, otherwise we don't know and probably not.

So as long as you have the 'anchoring machine' inside the universe you're in (and assuming said universe isn't null or anything) then whatever tech behind it should work, meaning you can use them?

What is the size of such an anchoring machine? Small enough to be transported with our current EUE? And could an anchor be transported in parts and assembled on-site?

I mean they'll work in other universes because the anchor is in our universe, where it functions. You'll have to bring the anchor machine (size of a semi-truck) into other universes to test if it works there.

[Radio Controlled]

Hasn't been tried, but the difficulty is less "do they work" it's more "where can we put the anchoring machine once we leave this universe?"

because it works as long as the anchor is here, otherwise we don't know and probably not.

So as long as you have the 'anchoring machine' inside the universe you're in (and assuming said universe isn't null or anything) then whatever tech behind it should work, meaning you can use them?

What is the size of such an anchoring machine? Small enough to be transported with our current EUE? And could an anchor be transported in parts and assembled on-site?

I mean they'll work in other universes because the anchor is in our universe, where it functions. You'll have to bring the anchor machine (size of a semi-truck) into other universes to test if it works there.

Ah, ok then. And so if we find at least 1 universe where the anchor works, we could then place the anchor there and use pocket dimension tech across other universes as well. Am I understanding things correctly?

[Egan_BW]

Wait, are you saying that we could create pocket universe doors while in other universes, so long as the Anchor is working here? Could that be used to create a physical "doorway" (Like in the current mission) between our own universe and another one?

[Unholy_Pariah]

Hasn't been tried, but the difficulty is less "do they work" it's more "where can we put the anchoring machine once we leave this universe?"

because it works as long as the anchor is here, otherwise we don't know and probably not.

So as long as you have the 'anchoring machine' inside the universe you're in (and assuming said universe isn't null or anything) then whatever tech behind it should work, meaning you can use them?

What is the size of such an anchoring machine? Small enough to be transported with our current EUE? And could an anchor be transported in parts and assembled on-site?

I mean they'll work in other universes because the anchor is in our universe, where it functions. You'll have to bring the anchor machine (size of a semi-truck) into other universes to test if it works there.

The inside of  pocket dimension has the same or similar laws as our original universe, could we fill one with dimensional anchors to bypass the need to leave them behind?

[piecewise]

Hasn't been tried, but the difficulty is less "do they work" it's more "where can we put the anchoring machine once we leave this universe?"

because it works as long as the anchor is here, otherwise we don't know and probably not.

So as long as you have the 'anchoring machine' inside the universe you're in (and assuming said universe isn't null or anything) then whatever tech behind it should work, meaning you can use them?

What is the size of such an anchoring machine? Small enough to be transported with our current EUE? And could an anchor be transported in parts and assembled on-site?

I mean they'll work in other universes because the anchor is in our universe, where it functions. You'll have to bring the anchor machine (size of a semi-truck) into other universes to test if it works there.

Ah, ok then. And so if we find at least 1 universe where the anchor works, we could then place the anchor there and use pocket dimension tech across other universes as well. Am I understanding things correctly?

Yes

Wait, are you saying that we could create pocket universe doors while in other universes, so long as the Anchor is working here? Could that be used to create a physical "doorway" (Like in the current mission) between our own universe and another one?

No. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work. The other doorway never seems to form.

Hasn't been tried, but the difficulty is less "do they work" it's more "where can we put the anchoring machine once we leave this universe?"

because it works as long as the anchor is here, otherwise we don't know and probably not.

So as long as you have the 'anchoring machine' inside the universe you're in (and assuming said universe isn't null or anything) then whatever tech behind it should work, meaning you can use them?

What is the size of such an anchoring machine? Small enough to be transported with our current EUE? And could an anchor be transported in parts and assembled on-site?

I mean they'll work in other universes because the anchor is in our universe, where it functions. You'll have to bring the anchor machine (size of a semi-truck) into other universes to test if it works there.

The inside of  pocket dimension has the same or similar laws as our original universe, could we fill one with dimensional anchors to bypass the need to leave them behind?

You could try...but I suggest not doing it.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

How do I obtain immortality?

[Radio Controlled]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, in reality you could condense it to

"Make things habitable for humanity"

But the reason I put it like this is because the thing is gonna take what it knows, the world around it and use evolutionary systems to try and create the best possible solution. And without any baseline parameters it might create a base without doors, because that provides the best radiation shielding; and the base is self contained so there's no reason to let anyone outside!


Really we just need a list of basic features you want all bases to have. Not like power generators, but less obvious things. Windows, or rec rooms or quarantine rooms or things like that.

((when it comes right down to it I just want an outline of what kind of base you want so I don't have to spend a while thinking about it and possibly leave things out like a tard))

Well, thing is, in some situations it really might be better to keep the people closed in if there's lethal radiation storms outside, whereas in other said storms might be weak enough to warrant letting people outside. I'll quote something from the tinker thread to try and give you a better idea of what I mean:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay.  For the ships which do have humans on them, how will they interact with the AIs?  Will there be a captain which has supreme authority?  Does the AI have its own moral system which can't be completely overridden by said captain?  How much can the AI say "no" to?  Can it say no to indefinitely detaining or permafreezing a human?  Murdering someone?  Murdering almost everyone on the ship?

I think a sort of 'benevolent dictatorship', like what we have going with Steve right now, would do the trick. The AI has final authority, but is programmed to allow as much freedom to colonists as possible unless it hampers the colony overly much. How the colonists organize themselves will be up to them, but again the AI acts as a sort of buffer against excesses (if the colonists prefer a hereditary 'king' like person to lead them, they can have it, but if said king starts to demand too much or hampers the optimal functioning of the colony too much, the Ai intervenes).

For example, if the colonists decide that permafreezing is the punishment for irredeemable violent criminals, the AI might allow that, but if they then start to use that for petty crimes like a drunken brawl, it will intervene to prevent a lot of useful people getting locked away.

So basically the Ai is a sort of enlightened despot (or benevolent dictator) who tries to give freedom when he can, but will reign it in when necessary (eg. it won't intervene if the colonists wanna do things in a way that's slightly less optimal, but if there's a crisis that needs everyone to act this exact way right now or the colony is destroyed, then it will go full tyrant mode until the crisis is averted).

So, it would basically try to give the colonists as much freedom and quality of life as it can afford without endangering the long-term survival of the colony.

That's why I have difficulty setting up a standard requirements list, because different universes might ask for radically unconventional base designs. From the Wikipedia page on 'Colonization of Mars':

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Habitats
Storage facilities
Shop workspaces
Resource extraction equipment—initially for water and oxygen, later for a wider cross section of minerals, building materials, etc.
Energy production and storage equipment, some solar and perhaps other forms as well
Food production spaces and equipment.
Propellant production equipment, generally thought to be hydrogen and methane through the Sabatier reaction[39] for fuel—with oxygen oxidizer—for chemical rocket engines
Fuels or other energy source for use with surface transportation. Carbon monoxide/oxygen (CO/O2) engines have been suggested for early surface transportation use as both carbon monoxide and oxygen can be straightforwardly produced by zirconium dioxide electrolysis from the Martian atmosphere without requiring use of any of the Martian water resources to obtain hydrogen.[40]
Communication equipment

So, a list like this would be the minimal requirements for any colony, but how each item is achieved is difficult to predict.

For example, on a planet with good, livable conditions outside, the colony might decide not to build a real rec room and instead just let colonists entertain themselves outside, saving resources for other projects. But then in another universe, where due to circumstances usable space is really limited, it might decide to provide all leisure through VR machines because there just isn't any room for a real life rec room. And in a third it might decide that a regular rec room is an acceptable use of resources. But that all depends on the circumstances, which vary so wildly (at least, from what I've seen from the universes explored already) I dunno if any 'standard requirements list' would be worth anything.

If you are afraid that you won't be able to come up with a good base design for a particular universe, you could always just ask us for inspiration. Or, ask yourself the question 'what are the main difficulties and limitations for this universe? How do they relate to filling need X? How could that need still be fulfilled then?

Remember that you won't have to describe (or even work out) every colony in every universe we send these to, just when necessary.

Fair enough. You can leave this entirely in the computer's hands then, if you want.  But it's gonna at LEAST need a prime directive. Some overriding goal for its construction and management. Just in case it runs into things it has no background for.

Does this work as an answer?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Overarching goal of the AI is (as stated before) to try and ensure humanity survives as a species. There'd be a bunch of side-requirements, such as 'survival in a way that ensures humans themselves are still independent agents capable of acting and exhibiting a wide range of activities' yadayada and so forth, but that's the idea we start from.

To achieve that, it provides colonies that could accommodate human life as we know it, by building infrastructure for providing them with the needed resources (food, air, etc.) and the habitation units themselves. These units should allow humans to express their various natural behaviors and fill their natural needs, such as allowing them to get physical exercise, provide leisure opportunities, provide sleeping units adapted to whatever social structure the current colonists use, , but also try and make it so they all have a job and can contribute to their society in a productive way (which is a good source of self worth, if nothing else). All protected from the elements and other harmful circumstances/influences, with safety being a primary concern, but weighed so that some risk is allowed (to prevent them just getting hooked to VR machines for eternity when the risk is minimal) if it leads to better quality of life and freedom of movement.

Once the initial colony is set up and is self sufficient with enough reserves and back-ups to deal with crises, it starts to expand to new sites in the same universe to set up secondary colonies or to find interesting resources to exploit. It also tries to set up daughter colonies in other universes once it is capable/has access to a extra-universal engine.

And some clarifying (well, 'clarifying') statements:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All this does sound good.  A minor addition to it would be to use a different variant of EUE--IIRC, the Doc said that the EUE could be altered to access a different set of universes.  If we had some scientists make variant EUEs, then send the super secret colonies to universes only accessible by those variant EUEs, and then we killed the scientists and destroyed the EUEs, it would be essentially impossible to ever deliberately hunt down those other human colonies no matter how determined and powerful an intelligence was.

Even better, if we programmed those colonies to replicate the trick, we'd essentially be forkbombing the multiverse with the human virus.  Eventually, humanity would be almost ubiquitous throughout all possible multiverses.  We'd make humans the only constant in a multiverse of infinities.

Sure, using variant EUE could work well. And yes, the idea was indeed to keep spreading across other universes (in a continuation of the 'once sufficient supplies are stockpiled, start spreading out again' outlined earlier) after the initial wave of colonization. As said, make it just about impossible to ever truly eradicate the human race from the multiverse.

We can *probably* just use whatever Steve defines as human, so my opinion is probably irrelevant, but I could see this resulting in some very nonhuman humans.  For instance, do limbs really need bones if we can make tentacles with greater strength and flexibility?  Is skin important if we can biomod humans to have hexsand surfaces which allow them to eat light and energy, despite making them look like holes in reality?  Must humans have organic brains, if we can make streamlined computer simulations of humans which run at much higher speed with near-perfect simulations of emotions and such?  If those humans edit themselves so that they don't experience emotions such as anger or sadness, instead remaining constantly euphoric, should the AI consider them humans?  If it does, and if it values happiness, could it decide that it should replace all humans with computer simulations that are happy?

Alternatively, if you're very strict and accurate on the definitions of a human, does the AI start to enforce genetic purity, or enslave mutant children which are just *slightly* outside the definition of a human, despite not appearing too different to our own eyes?

Personally, I doubt any of these will ever be problems, but I'm trying to list everything I could possibly see going wrong.

Yeah, basing ourselves off of Steve should go a long way already. As for modding humanity, I think that the colony AI would only modify humans itself if it's absolutely necessary for the colonist's survival, while otherwise allowing humans to modify themselves (but again not if it's too demanding on resources or dangerous and such). Should prevent the colony replacing humans with anything against their will.

And yes, getting the right balance of what it means to be human to prevent weird excesses wouldn't be easy, but issues like that should become apparent during the testing phase.

Okay.  All this seems logical and good.

I'm unsure if it's what PW was asking for--I think he wanted more aesthetic descriptions?  I remember him asking whether you wanted windows everywhere or something.

One possible issue is the definition of "natural".  One could argue that it is very natural for humans to kill things--would the AI create animals for them to kill?  Or let them kill each other, because it's "natural"?  Another question would be about the "natural" behaviors of deviant individuals; If a sociopath naturally wanted to eat the flesh of his fellow man, would the AI allow it?  If not, what of an artist who had an unusual method of self expression--could they be defined as having an unnatural behavior, and be prevented from expressing themself in some way not approved by the AI?

Then we've got the current crazies' definition of natural; Is it natural to enjoy video games and movies?

What of genemodded humans?  Can the AI genemod humans to naturally want to be unconditionally kind to others, never harming another human's enjoyment of life?  How about making them naturally want to sleep twenty hours a day and repetitively play Jenga for the remaining four, all the while being blissfully happy?  You said the AI would allow some risk to be allowed, but what if the AI genemodded the humans to feel no desire for risk, or to have the desires, but have them be met by aforementioned Jenga (THEY MIGHT COLLAPSE OH MY GOD!)?

How about the risk?  Does it have to be included, or is it only a "if the humans ask for X, allow them to do so if it carries low risk"?  If it's a guarantee, can the AI cheat by providing fake risk, or can it provide risk by mixing in a small amount of toxic chemicals into the air supply every now and then?  If it's not a guarantee, is it okay if the AI just locks everyone in VR anyway, because it's made VR as good as real life?

Well, as I told him, I don't think any sort of aesthetic descriptions/demands would be worth a damn due to the massively different environments and needs that could mark any particular universe.

'Natural' was a bit of a shorthand there, I guess one way to define it would be 'let each colonist do what he wants, allow for some inefficiencies (eg in regards to resources used) in that, but keeps things within reason'. So the artist can express himself however he wants as long as it doesn't use a mass of resources or endanger other colonists (such as eating them). 'allowing natural behavior' was more in the sense of not just keeping humans cooped up in VR machines forever if that isn't absolutely strictly necessary.

For genemodding, see earlier.

For risk, yeah, again a weighing of 'allowing as much freedom as possible' vs 'potential risks' is made according to some sort of internal weighing factors, which are calibrated during the training and testing phases. Locking in VR can be done, but only if either the individual asks for it, or if it's the only way to keep an individual in a living state (the even more extreme alternative being cryosleep until the environment is more amenable to more normal life again).

[Empiricist]

Is it possible to use an Id Manifestation to practice medicine? If so, is Mesk a possible manifestation for, say, his disembodied hand?

[Xantalos]

How do I obtain immortality?

I could help with that.

I mean, I won't. But I could.

[AbstractTraitorHero]

How do I obtain immortality?

I could help with that.

I mean, I won't. But I could.

What if I say please and get you pizza?