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[WaffleEggnog]

So, in recent world gens in the new version, I've been getting a majority of my worlds having a mostly goblin population with many of the others wiped out. Usually on a short-medium genned world, goblins will have ~50% of the population and sometimes another race will be either be extinct or close to it, seemingly with a bias towards Dwarves. They almost always seem to get the short end of the stick, which is weird considering they have a combat advantage.

The longer the gen goes on for, it seems, the stronger the goblins get and the less there are of the other races. Goblins are the weakest race combat wise, why do they seem to be given such an edge during world gen?

Here is a pic of the population numbers in a world that has been going for 550 years, shown in legend viewer:


Has anyone else been getting this?

[Shazbot]

A little more information is needed. Is this the population break down by civilization members, or by race? The goblin ethic for kidnapping and enslaving may be bolstering their numbers and creating a one-way flow of members for the goblins.

[WaffleEggnog]

A little more information is needed. Is this the population break down by civilization members, or by race? The goblin ethic for kidnapping and enslaving may be bolstering their numbers and creating a one-way flow of members for the goblins.

It is the pops of the race, no just the civs. Both of the goblin civs have a very minor amount of other races within them, about 50 of each. This has been a running theme, so this isolated example doesn't really matter that much honestly.

Here are the hist figs of the world.

[Shazbot]

Well, goblins are immortal, a trait they share with the elves. Either would continue to breed unless their spouse was killed. This seems to be an unintended consequence of those two factors. There kind of needs to be a "max child" parameter to give these poor women a break after birthing a whole little league team. On top of that goblins are disposed to attack other civilizations, and victories there mean large numbers of dead civilians for the loser. You'll have to investigate this further.

[WaffleEggnog]

And then shit like this happens. Dwarves and other races lose wars and battles even though they kill way more enemies. Makes no sense to me.

[darkflagrance]

And then shit like this happens. Dwarves and other races lose wars and battles even though they kill way more enemies. Makes no sense to me.

Don't invaders always win attacks by default in the current version? I assume passive civs like the dwarves are at a massive disadvantage under the placeholder version of world gen battle mechanics.

[Urlance Woolsbane]

And then shit like this happens. Dwarves and other races lose wars and battles even though they kill way more enemies. Makes no sense to me.

Presumably, the goblins can throw more soldiers at the dwarves, leading them to win battles in which their casualties are higher than the dwarves. Makes sense to me.

As for why dwarves fare so badly, they seem to be incapable of starting wars, which rather hobbles their territorial ambitions.

[fomori]

And then shit like this happens. Dwarves and other races lose wars and battles even though they kill way more enemies. Makes no sense to me.

Don't invaders always win attacks by default in the current version? I assume passive civs like the dwarves are at a massive disadvantage under the placeholder version of world gen battle mechanics.

I thought Toady sorta-kinda changed that.

[vjmdhzgr]

In a few of the first 0.40 versions attackers would always win sieges after world generation had ended. Only after world generation ended, so this bug is irrelevant here, and even then, the bug was also fixed, making it irrelevant once again. The reason the goblins won is probably because they had more soldiers, as clearly shown by their high population numbers.

[WaffleEggnog]

Here is another world I genned for science, for around 675 years. Results posted here. Seems to align pretty well with he idea that the longer a world goes on for, the stronger goblins will get I think it may have something to do with the amount of beats being spawning at the start of a small world too shitty and the goblins get out of control. Will put them on high/very high and test again.

[Robsoie]

Out of the elven-like immortality so they lose none from old age through worldgen, gobs have 2 other advantages :

- they don't need to eat or drink, they have [NO_DRINK] and [NO_EAT] tokens in their creature definition.

- they have the [EVIL] token, so they're the only one that can colonize evil regions at worldgen, meaning that they will have no other entities challenging them on the same territory, allowing them to overpopulate easily there

There may be some bug or some hardcoded stuff for the gobs, only Toady knows.

[CLA]

- they have the [EVIL] token, so they're the only one that canl colonize evil regions at worldgen, meaning that they will have no other entities challenging them on the same territory, allowing them to overpopulate easily there

Don't the other races have site restrictions too (elves limited to forests, dwarves limited to mountains or something similar)?

Another factor might be that the goblins are often led by a demon, helping them winning wars.

[Robsoie]

- they have the [EVIL] token, so they're the only one that canl colonize evil regions at worldgen, meaning that they will have no other entities challenging them on the same territory, allowing them to overpopulate easily there

Don't the other races have site restrictions too (elves limited to forests, dwarves limited to mountains or something similar)?

For the -starting- location, they have, but they can spread elsewhere (those are defined in the entity, not in the creature like gobs), excepted in evil areas, because none of those creatures have the token.

By example the dwarf entities that start with mountain can spread in other biomes after that :

Code: [Select]

[EXCLUSIVE_START_BIOME:MOUNTAIN]
[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:ANY_FOREST]
[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:MOUNTAIN]
[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:ANY_GRASSLAND]
[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:ANY_SAVANNA]
[SETTLEMENT_BIOME:ANY_SHRUBLAND]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_FOREST:1]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:MOUNTAIN:3]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_GRASSLAND:1]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_SAVANNA:1]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_SHRUBLAND:1]
[BIOME_SUPPORT:ANY_RIVER:1]

[CLA]

For the -starting- location, they have, but they can spread elsewhere (those are defined in the entity, not in the creature like gobs), excepted in evil areas, because none of those creatures have the token.

I see. Thanks.

[IndigoFenix]

It basically comes down to two factors:

1. Goblins don't die of old age.
2. They can live anywhere on land.

Creatures can only settle where they have START_BIOME, EXCLUSIVE_START_BIOME, or SETTLEMENT_BIOME.  BIOME_SUPPORT lets them travel over biomes, but doesn't let them settle in them.

Elves are immortal, but their biomes are extremely restricted, being able to settle only in forests, and can't even claim territory outside of them, so they usually won't even spread beyond the particular forest they start in.
Dwarves are a little less restricted in where they can settle, but they still can't travel across swamps, deserts, or oceans.
Humans are pretty good explorers, but they can only settle on plains.  Their movement through deserts and wetlands is also pretty slow.

Goblins, on the other hand, have ANY_LAND for their start biome and biome support, which means their civilization is basically a green-skinned murderous fungus.  They can spread anywhere without any restrictions or movement penalties (except over water) and settle anywhere they spread.  They'll tend to be most thick in the swamps and deserts since nobody else wants to live there, but they'll pretty much be found anywhere that anyone else isn't.  Add that to their negligible death rate (outside of war), their propensity towards conquest, and their demon leaders, and you can see why the goblins usually end up inheriting the world.