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Author Topic: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.05 LNP -Combined game phase-  (Read 34820 times)

Gwolfski

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #210 on: January 28, 2016, 01:26:48 pm »

well, i got the priority in terms of miner hire, but ill set up a forgr industry pretty soon!
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Timeless Bob

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #211 on: January 28, 2016, 03:20:50 pm »

I'm going to play the Founders as a "necessary jobs at a premium" workforce.  Whatever you gents don't figure out for yourselves in terms of basic needs, the Founders will pitch in and take care of if they're able, charging that District for the "service". (All role-played of course.)  Looks like burrows are going to be more of a pain in the ass than a contribution to the game, so let's do away with them permanently.

This being the "blueprint" stage, specifying what wood is used for building should be alright - I can just count how many olive logs come from each chopped tree and when they make it to a nearby stockpile, select only olive logs up to the same number for building.  It all comes down to careful book-keeping on some paper outside the game itself.

Coins will certainly soon become valuable as resources become more easily predictable in relation to each-other.  The trick is to create a cycle of needs, coins are a good indication of where the economy hits a snag, because they'll flow along with transactions until there's more going in than coming out.  Of course, this damming of currency is often freed up by trading them in large quantities for luxury goods which have no real use other than to be aesthetically pleasing and to confer some form of social legitimacy via "display of wealth".  Personally, I see currency as a way to trade for resources not yet available - they're basically "IOU" notes and are only really useful when whomever is giving the implied promise to trade the resources the currency is standing in for is known with a certainty that they can do so.  I believe that's called "strong currency".  When things are a bit more risky, and there's a chance that inflation will devalue the amount of future resources that a coin will be able to be traded for in the future, then there's usually less trust that the currency is worth holding onto, and people will trade it immediately for whatever limited resources are available, often then driving the price of whatever's left sky high.  With stuff that can rot or rust, its better to have coins that don't rot or rust in order to get them when you need them.  Likewise bulky items like furniture, because not everyone will have the space to store them.

Most MMO's cheat by creating "gold generators" and "gold sinks" that create money and then destroy it via Player interaction.  The amount of currency per person in a given game remains roughly the same, no matter how many people are playing it, and as a consequence, prices remain fixed.  Our experiment here will be one where the only way to remove currency from the system will be to melt it down into bars once more.  (Using labor, time and resources to do so.) 

The Founders have already sold the anvil to the Lakecastle district, so it seems that until another anvil is bought from the caravan, that they are going to be the only ones capable of smithing coins.  Considering they're also the ones who will be hiring themselves out as a mining team, I think the Founders will request that the price of the anvil be paid over the next 2 years in aluminum coins. However many Aluminum coins are created in that period will equal 5000DB, and that will create the worth of each coin in inter-district trade value. I think 10 stacks of coins will do nicely: 5000 coins will make each one worth 1DB in trade.  Whenever a District wishes to trade using a resource they don't yet have, they'll be able to borrow the appropriate amount of currency from the Founder's Bank to cover the cost and the Founder's Bank will only charge a small fee to provide this service.

As the game progresses, I see other types of metal becoming different denominations of currency as needed for ease of trade.  For instance, if someone is hoarding all the aluminum coins and as a result, there aren't enough coins to go around, then trading those hoarders a stack of 5DB or even 10DB coins might free up enough of the 1DB coins that there's enough to let trade flow freely again, but that will also mean that the sum total of DB able to be traded has increased past 5000, so the individual worth of each coin will be less. (Yay, inflation!)  To deflate the number of DB in circulation, either those 5 and 10DB coins are removed from trade by exchanging them for goods then storing them away or destroying enough currency that only 5000DB of it remain (which means someone loses that wealth, which sucks unless you're an MMO "gold sink" NPC.)

We may find that we'll eventually need more money in circulation anyway, which might make the aluminum 1DB coin worth 1/100 of a DB after awhile, like what's happened to the American Penny.

Oh, this will be very interesting.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 04:18:49 pm by Timeless Bob »
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Gwolfski

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #212 on: January 28, 2016, 04:20:46 pm »

I'm walling myself off now, so yeah. no problem for me. i starve, my business!
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Timeless Bob

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #213 on: January 28, 2016, 04:41:53 pm »

I'm walling myself off now, so yeah. no problem for me. i starve, my business!
Interesting. I'll be interested to see how that works with your miners also accepting jobs from others to dig stuff out in other Districts.
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Gwolfski

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #214 on: January 28, 2016, 04:50:58 pm »

I never hired miners out to anyone...
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Sanctume

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #215 on: January 28, 2016, 04:55:30 pm »

I never hired miners out to anyone...

Haha, suicide diggers. I can see TimelessBob now burrowing Gwolfski's diggers preventing them from raiding other's food and booze stock, then watching each of the them hunt for vermin in between digs.  Gwolfski has the lakes so they will be ok in terms of drinks.

Timeless Bob

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #216 on: January 28, 2016, 05:17:14 pm »

I never hired miners out to anyone...

My mistake.  I'm also in the middle of organizing a Human Fox Hunt in RL and got a bit mixed up.  Carry on!
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 05:37:09 pm by Timeless Bob »
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Urdothor

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #217 on: January 28, 2016, 06:29:47 pm »

Sorry I was absent yesterday. The game has started, I believe? I shall get on with it then!
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Sanctume

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #218 on: January 28, 2016, 09:51:51 pm »

Dang-it, the Light food haulers took away my plants from my stock piles! 

And between red spinach, and date palm flower stalks, none of these are brewables. 

I need some initial seeds / plants for brewables: fisher berry, rice, rat weed, and rope reed.

@Shofet: Do you want me to mass chop the trees, and gather plants from your district?

Sanctume

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #219 on: January 29, 2016, 09:40:00 am »

Summer came with all sorts of fun.  A were-lizard shows up nearest District P where everyone was hungry and thirsty and no bed.
I at least created 2 training spears and shields and created a military squad with Mr. Ast and Mr Zasit and manage to kill the were lizard.

The reports did not show any other damage except for 1 casualty. However, next month, one of the kids from the migration wave turned were-lizard, and over half the pop died including my 2 militia.

Autumn came, and I quickly had to make a depot so I can see what the caravan has for trade.

Lessons learned by me:
1. Burrows messed up a lot of things.  I have a kitchen with plenty of cookable food and barrels, but zero lavish meals were created.
2. Booze despite on repeat, have fruits and barrels, zero were made.
3. Zero mining is really crippling
4. Little to no self-sufficient infra-structure for the non-citizens of my district is a bother to focusing on my blue print.
5. I don't why I did not consider the obsidian already existing in District P (Light), because I forbid them in the beginning to get a more accurate count of how many trees I have after my initial cut trees designations.  Anyway, I could have at least used these stones to make querns and mechanisms for screw press sooner.  And maybe even stone blocks.

6. I would demand at least 1 pick-axe for each district.  I mean, sure we can do with 2 log-> training axe+carpenter to make more logs if there are trees.  Waiting for anvil from caravan is a doable challenge.  But I rarely seen any "0-pick, 0-anvil challenge" and a more acceptable challenge is a "1-pick challenge" given that there is 3 logs from disassembling the wagon +2 animals.

7. A water source, even a small-ish late on the district would be helpful.  But I chose an unbroken flat land to maximize tree farming, and my citizens were thirsty because there was little brewable plants , and harvestable fruits did not happen until summer.

8. Step Ladders should not be included in any stockpile because haulers will take it away on occasions, and leave the herbalist stranded up on trees gather fruits.

Timeless Bob

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #220 on: January 29, 2016, 04:47:12 pm »

Sounds like a good political platform:
"As Mayor, I promise that there will be a pick-axe for every District! No longer will you need to wait for another to dig what you wish for yourself!"

Also, I might make something clearer:  Since this is a blueprint, you're welcome to save-scum or re-start any time you like in that game.  This will give you information you don't normally get in DF games, like where ore deposits are, where the various caves are and the ability to que needful things up better the next round through, including deleting all of the burrows if that makes things easier.  By the time you post your blue-print, you'll have a pretty good idea what that year probably has in store for everyone, but what you won't know is exactly how everyone else decides to deal with it.  That uncertainty, and the measures you guys take to insure against it is what will shape The City here in the first few years.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 04:56:38 pm by Timeless Bob »
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Sanctume

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #221 on: January 29, 2016, 05:30:24 pm »

Yeah, I plan to restart from the first save, and re-make the military squads so I can sort by district citizens (except the kids), then save this for save-scumming.

I still want to test burrow only for my citizens as this will give me a more accurate speed of construction.

I got my screen shot plans of 2 buildings I want, but I will probably switch their priority build order. 

--
District F will be named "The Olive Grove" [TOG]

[TOG] 1. Looking for obsidian stone boulders.
Offering log furniture (bed, cabinet, chest, barrel, door, table, or chair)

[TOG] 2. Looking for wood logs to chop and haul.
Offering tree cutting services and wood hauling to clear off your district

[TOG] 3. Looking for lake/pond as water source access.
Offering 1 barrel of booze per season of access

[TOG] 4. Looking kenaf plants, rice plants, rope reed, rat weed.  Looking for rights and access to gather plants from your district.
Offering 1 barrel of prepared food, lavish meals per season

Gwolfski

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #222 on: January 29, 2016, 06:11:47 pm »

question: could you use soem of the unclaimed didtricts to pick plants/ fish?
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Timeless Bob

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #223 on: January 29, 2016, 06:42:25 pm »

question: could you use some of the unclaimed districts to pick plants/ fish?

Good question.  Those Districts haven't been claimed by anybody else, so they're just empty lots right now...

I'm going to say, yes.  Anything that doesn't remove a limited resource from an unclaimed District (I'm including lumbering here, since wood can produce permanent furniture) should be able to be harvested.

Good idea.
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Shofet

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Re: "The City" (Multiplayer-ish Dwarven Economy) 42.04 Phoebus
« Reply #224 on: January 29, 2016, 10:35:40 pm »

@ Sanctume, yes go ahead and clear as much lumber as possible. Im going to assign a few of my own dwarves to plant gathering, im assuming in the final cut they will gather with your guys and the founders and food will be shared. At least initially.

I keep telling myself we just need to get past the first year.

Also, are humans and elves in range?
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