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Author Topic: Gender quotas  (Read 36693 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #405 on: January 25, 2016, 05:27:47 pm »

NERDS GO BACK TO THE LAB

LordBucket

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #406 on: January 25, 2016, 09:26:02 pm »

I think I've lost track of who is being serious and who isn't, as well as in come cases, who is speaking to whom. I think I'm going to not respond to things up to this point. If you feel like you've directed something to me that you want a response to, let me know. I'm not ignoring you and I'm not deliberately avoiding you because you've made some epic point that I can't respond to.

I'm just not sure at this point what merits a response.

wierd

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #407 on: January 25, 2016, 09:57:15 pm »

Thus, there is a false equivalency in SirQuiamus's calculus.
I beg to differ with your premature dismissal of my theory, and I kindly ask you to reconsider it in the light of the following formal proof:

S1: "Bill is smart."

S2: "People think that Bill is smart."

S3: "Bill is smart if and only if people think that Bill is smart". (S1 <==> S2)

M1: "Bill makes a lot of money."

M2: "People think that Bill is smart if and only if Bill makes a lot of money." (S2 <==> M1)

M3: "Bill does not make a lot of money, therefore Bill is not smart." (~M1, M2, S3 |– ~S1)

Q. E. D.

The truthfulness of statement s3 is questionable/dubious, and is where the false equivalency lies.

Intelligence is a feature that exists, in one form or other, outside of human appreciation. Take for instance, the intelligence of crows in solving complex problems. They do this completely irrespective of any feedback from humans, because their intelligent problem solving conveys a survival advantage for their species. EG, they survive, because they are intelligent. By this factor, one can draw the alternative equivalency of "alive <==> intelligent", when it comes to crows. This means that Bill can be intelligent even when people do not consider him to be so, since Bill (like the crows) likewise has had survival pressure applied to his species to become intelligent. (vastly more so than said crows.)  This then leads to a contradiction, where with your stated axiom S3, "Bill is intelligent if and only if people believe him to be so" contradicts with observed truth "Bill is intelligent because bill is alive", because bill can be alive, even if people do not believe him to be.

If you accept the stated axioms at face value, it works out, but when strongly subjected to scrutiny about what intelligence actually is (ability to implement complex, and elaborate solutions to intricate problems, on the fly-- as a function derived from the increased survival rate of individuals with this capability) it falls apart.

Still false equivalency.
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BlackHeartKabal

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #408 on: January 25, 2016, 09:58:52 pm »

I thought we were talking about gender quotas?
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wierd

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #409 on: January 25, 2016, 10:06:19 pm »

We initially were. It devolved into what would constitute fairness, and in what kinds of situations, as a consequence of exploring that topic, and got mired in quibbles, such as the above.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #410 on: January 25, 2016, 10:55:08 pm »

Also shitposting
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #411 on: January 26, 2016, 02:28:23 pm »

I thought we were talking about gender quotas?
I thought that this thread needed a good derail since there was nothing more to say about the original subject.

The truthfulness of statement s3 is questionable/dubious, and is where the false equivalency lies.
(Your reasoning is correct, but bear with me for a moment because I'm playing the Devil's advocate here. ;P )

It is indeed the case that "intelligence" can be conceived of as real property that exists regardless of what we think – but, is it possible to objectively measure such a property? To start with the easier end of things, measuring "non-human intelligence for humans" is, as you pointed out, often a trivial matter: we can instantly tell that crows are more "intelligent" than nematodes, and humans are more "intelligent" than crows (whatever that means) – these answers can be easily extrapolated by comparing the animals' behavioural and neuronal complexity with each other, simple as that. However, we start getting into trouble when we try to compare the behavioural patterns of species that closely resemble each other in terms of behavioral/neuronal complexity: Are horses smarter than donkeys? Are goats smarter than antelopes? Are flatworms smarter than nematodes? The official scientific answer at this point is "who the fuck knows?"

Things get even more desperately difficult when we try to measure differences in intelligence between members of a single species. The fact of the matter is that we currently have absolutely no way of objectively measuring "intelligence as such" in humans, since human intelligence tests like WAIS are obviously designed to quantify a very specific subset of possible human behavioural patterns – a very specific kind of "human intelligence for humans." If you want to know how accurate our intelligence tests are, well, the Flynn effect is quite illustrative of the present state of the art, as is the membership of Mensa (including such luminaries as Scott Adams, Jimmy Savile, Julie Peterson, and Katariina Souri).

Because we have no objective measure of being "intelligent," the colloquial measure of "smartness" is – in a capitalist society – quite simply the abilty to make money, period. If John makes a buck, then John has to be "smart" in some unspecified way (M ––> S). If John is "smart" in whatever way, then John sure as fuck does make a buck (S ––> M). Therefore, to be "smart" is to "make money" and vice versa (S <==> M), as I argued above.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #412 on: January 26, 2016, 05:24:52 pm »

Well, sure, if you define "smartness" as "the ability to accrue money" than that's just a definition.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #413 on: February 04, 2016, 06:51:17 pm »

...PTW.
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Dorsidwarf

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #414 on: February 04, 2016, 07:03:19 pm »

Well, sure, if you define "smartness" as "the ability to accrue money" than that's just a definition.
The Trump factor

AH CONSIDER MYSELF A VERY INTELLEGENT PEHRSON
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #415 on: February 04, 2016, 07:19:10 pm »

...PTW.
Why did you have to reawaken this thread
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #416 on: February 04, 2016, 07:24:25 pm »

...PTW.
Why did you have to reawaken this thread
Blame OOCQ.  They linked me here.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #417 on: February 04, 2016, 08:28:57 pm »

29 pages? On one question? :o

Well then.

If a Great Old One rose on Venus and no one survived, did it usher in a golden age of equality?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #418 on: February 04, 2016, 08:49:02 pm »

Ia ia necrothread f'tagn

TheBiggerFish

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Re: Gender quotas
« Reply #419 on: February 04, 2016, 10:44:06 pm »

But it hadn't even been more than about a week!
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