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[TD1]

The issue is more like... well, imagine the government is my parents. They've been handling my life pretty shoddily. My siblings can say that our parents are being asses.

You, a kid with different parents, then come and say that my parents are so darn horrible they actually make you feel better about your own parents.

Kinda a lame move tbh.

[Il Palazzo]

The issue is more like... well, imagine the government is my parents. They've been handling my life pretty shoddily. My siblings can say that our parents are being asses.

You, a kid with different parents, then come and say that my parents are so darn horrible they actually make you feel better about your own parents.

Kinda a lame move tbh.

What's lame is the 'only nationals of X can criticise the government of X' line of passive-aggressive defence you're erecting here.

[wierd]

Kinda, but on the other hand, going "Damn, and I thought my parents were bad.."  where one of my parrents is a crack whore who's in it mostly for the sex, and the other is a fall down drunk who hates his marriage, it kinda DOES say something about how healthy your home-life is.

I think that was kinda the point here.

[Iduno]

So... we're screwed, we're clownshoe idiots, and America is likely better than us we've set the bar so low?

Em......... thanks? 

To be fair, the US's dipshit is so obviously a dipshit, his own party occasionally makes a show of fighting against him. We're all fucked, one government is just better at pretending we aren't.

[wierd]

Really, we should all be bonding over the shared experience of how horrible our homelives are...  er--- How horrible our governments treat their citizens, and their mandates to govern correctly.

[TD1]

The issue is more like... well, imagine the government is my parents. They've been handling my life pretty shoddily. My siblings can say that our parents are being asses.

You, a kid with different parents, then come and say that my parents are so darn horrible they actually make you feel better about your own parents.

Kinda a lame move tbh.

What's lame is the 'only nationals of X can criticise the government of X' line of passive-aggressive defence you're erecting here.

Oh, I'm not saying you can't criticise the British government if you're not British. Go ahead.

I'm saying there are plenty of better ways to do so than saying "wow you're all screwed and we're actually better than you."

[Iduno]

Really, we should all be bonding over the shared experience of how horrible our homelives are...  er--- How horrible our governments treat their citizens, and their mandates to govern correctly.

Either one will work. The hard part is determining which is less of a trainwreck. One obviously has more large-scale effects, but ...

[Frumple]

I'm saying there are plenty of better ways to do so than saying "wow you're all screwed and we're actually better than you."

"You're making some of our shit look less bad" doesn't actually translate into "and we're actually better than you", but okay.

You are screwed, though. Not really any getting out of that, at this point. Even if you go least-damaging and revoke A50, the resulting domestic political shitshow will be a mess and a half. Everything else has worse economic repercussions (for more or less everyone, UK probably most of all) and a similar polis kerfuffle. So, y'know. Screwed. It's been a while since the UK had a way out of this that didn't leave them pretty fucked.

Basically telling parliament to go home for most of the time y'all have left until one of the most major deadlines the UK's faced in my lifetime isn't exactly going to help, though

[Naturegirl1999]

I think this would have been avoided had parliamentary Kant accepted the deal Teresa May worked on with the EU, though I am an American so I don’t know as much as a UK citizen would about all of this. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, as I do not know everything. This was just thoughts.

[Great Order]

So... I see that the "Take back democracy" idea had a line in fine print saying "So we could remove it ourselves"


This is the kind of thing I like the EU for. To an extent it protects us from the worst deprivations of our own utterly untrustworthy political class.

Some ~50% of leave and conservative supporters actively support this, according to a snap poll. Which rather confirms to me that a lot of people really don't give two shits about democracy, they're more concerned about their side winning. They'd literally support the Nazis (not a comparison I usually make) if their views happened to align, the fucksticks.

[scriver]

Yeah, remember when Sweden had this anti-democratic system in which every document handled by the state becomes publicly available and catalogued and then the EU protected us from that by making us change our unjust system? That's the kind of thing that makes me love the EU

I'm saying there are plenty of better ways to do so than saying "wow you're all screwed and we're actually better than you."

"You're making some of our shit look less bad" doesn't actually translate into "and we're actually better than you", but okay.

You are screwed, though. Not really any getting out of that, at this point. Even if you go least-damaging and revoke A50, the resulting domestic political shitshow will be a mess and a half. Everything else has worse economic repercussions (for more or less everyone, UK probably most of all) and a similar polis kerfuffle. So, y'know. Screwed. It's been a while since the UK had a way out of this that didn't leave them pretty fucked.

Basically telling parliament to go home for most of the time y'all have left until one of the most major deadlines the UK's faced in my lifetime isn't exactly going to help, though

The contentious part is the one where you're being a smug prick

But you know, I'm not one to speak

[TD1]

You are screwed, though. Not really any getting out of that, at this point. Even if you go least-damaging and revoke A50, the resulting domestic political shitshow will be a mess and a half. Everything else has worse economic repercussions (for more or less everyone, UK probably most of all) and a similar polis kerfuffle. So, y'know. Screwed. It's been a while since the UK had a way out of this that didn't leave them pretty fucked.

Basically telling parliament to go home for most of the time y'all have left until one of the most major deadlines the UK's faced in my lifetime isn't exactly going to help, though

*Shrug*

I'll give you a firm "maybe."

So... I see that the "Take back democracy" idea had a line in fine print saying "So we could remove it ourselves"


This is the kind of thing I like the EU for. To an extent it protects us from the worst deprivations of our own utterly untrustworthy political class.

Some ~50% of leave and conservative supporters actively support this, according to a snap poll. Which rather confirms to me that a lot of people really don't give two shits about democracy, they're more concerned about their side winning. They'd literally support the Nazis (not a comparison I usually make) if their views happened to align, the fucksticks.

Being screwed over by our own political elite rather than the one in Brussels is our sovereign right, though! And it's kinda funny thinking of the EU as being a force for moral good in politics XD

Boris' actions are actually an interesting way of viewing consequentialism and what Machiavelli coined as "the ends justifies the means." Suspend a democratic institution to ensure more democracy in future? Sure!

Personally I've never liked consequentialism. Kant gives a slightly better, though still flawed, approach - intent, rather than result, is what counts.

Boris' shenanigans have yet to reach May Day levels, but that boyo had better watch himself. I suspect he's trying to buy himself time to straighten things out without Parliament simultaneously egging him on and tripping him up.

[Great Order]

The EU pulls everything towards their level. In Sweden that might have made it worse, but the UK's politicians are about as trustworthy as a starved dog being told not to eat a sausage that's been left on the floor so they've, as I said, stopped our worst deprivations. Now we've got little dictator wannabes like Johnson in power actively going against democracy because it's only good when you can steamroll over other views.


And yes, the EU isn't flawless Dwarfy, but I'd rather take that over what we have. We're in the midst of what's best described as anti-democratic lunacy and the best response is "Yeah well the EU isn't really that good"?


And if you're seriously pulling the "The ends justify the means (or the intended means)" card, you've lost the argument. That can be used for anything, and God knows how many atrocities have been perpetuated under that banner. In fact, it gets worse when you go into intent justifies the means. If that's the case then Mao is a veritable hero for starving China since he intended well by accidentally inducing a major famine then covering it up.

[Frumple]

The contentious part is the one where you're being a smug prick

If it's coming across like that, it's not intentional. Smugness ain't what that mess is causing me to feel, it's something between disbelief and muted horror. S'like watching a train wreck knowing the shrapnel is going to hit you along with everyone immediately involved

[smjjames]

On the BBC liveblog (which concluded a while ago I think) I saw someone making the argument that it's been the longest government session ever (or somesuch) and that it's needed to reset things so that they can get back to regular order. However, I thought 'Parliaments' (like how ###th Congress is used for every two year block here) spanned between each general election, though the snap elections in between probably screwed with things. Besides, if it really was meant as symbolic, why not do a more symbolic length of time like a week or something right at the end of summer break.