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[ChairmanPoo]

 I think it's worth repeating: regardless of the overall flaws or virtues of the EU as an institution (and I do think it has severe flaws, nor do I particularily like EU commission), Brexit as it is has an anti-foreigner facet, or is perceived as such, regardless of the intent, and makes it harder for foreign talent to move in. Both make it less likely that foreign workers with essential skills will be willing to move in.

[Loud Whispers]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/dec/03/eu-university-funding-grants-decline-brexit-horizon-2020
"The UK benefits enormously from the access to vital networks, funding and talent Horizon 2020 provides."

Funding is not the only concern they raise, it's not just about the money. It's a whole system that allows for cross-continent co-operation between universities which we could lose access to.

wahe what a surprise, some false conclusions
Losing membership of European Financial Instruments is not the same as EU Universities deploying an academic boycott the likes of which has only been seen used on apartheid South Africa; it is patent fear mongering from the elites of our country (average £339,657 salary - with the overpaid chancellors patently lying through their teeth that they have earned their pay whilst cutting faculty wages), that we must support the European Union in order to conduct our own research or cooperate with other Universities. Which is to say, we will have access to Universities in the USA, we will have access to Universities in China - but the EU will be off limits unless we do what the good Vice Chancellors say, and we should trust their word on the matter.

I think it's worth repeating: regardless of the overall flaws or virtues of the EU as an institution (and I do think it has severe flaws, nor do I particularily like EU commission), Brexit as it is has an anti-foreigner facet, or is perceived as such, regardless of the intent, and makes it harder for foreign talent to move in. Both make it less likely that foreign workers with essential skills will be willing to move in.

It is entirely pointless to speak in such terms when the perception is entirely manufactured by opinion setters and media campaigns. What makes it hard for foreign talent to move in is the fact that our government is led by wealthy elites who do not appreciate competition from skilled migrants, hence why unlimited unskilled migration is acceptable, but skilled migrant visas must be capped. The former group is not perceived to be a threat to their careers, the latter is, so the latter find structural barriers in place against them

*EDIT, just saw your edit

Again, calling an attitude dangerous is not the same thing as saying the person who has it should be jailed. But sure, take any criticism as a call for you to be publicly executed why not.

You're asking me to ignore the history of your rhetoric being used to justify the crushing of political opponents as dangerous. That's a lot to ask, from one who ostensibly cares about rational and reasonable debate. You don't call someone dangerous and a threat to the fabric of society if you don't intend for their threat to be neutralized.

[Dorsidwarf]

Again, calling an attitude dangerous is not the same thing as saying the person who has it should be jailed. But sure, take any criticism as a call for you to be publicly executed why not.

You're asking me to ignore the history of your rhetoric being used to justify the crushing of political opponents as dangerous. That's a lot to ask, from one who ostensibly cares about rational and reasonable debate. You don't call someone dangerous and a threat to the fabric of society if you don't intend for their threat to be neutralized.

So all those articles that call millenials a threat to [x random industry] are asking for all twentysomethings to be executed? That's such bullshit victimisation of yourself and you know it full well.

People saying "science doesnt matter, research doesnt matter, if we believe in ourselves and ignore everyone who says we're wrong we can make [arbitary nation state] great again!" is dangerous, and that should be obvious no matter what your opinions on the Brexit vote are. Don't make the mistake of automatically taking the side of liars and demagogues just because they're on your side any more than anti-brexit people should defend people who say Brexit will make us drift out into the atlantic and sink.

[Loud Whispers]

So all those articles that call millenials a threat to [x random industry] are asking for all twentysomethings to be executed? That's such bullshit victimisation of yourself and you know it full well.

No to the former, no to the latter. Saying millennials are apathetic towards consumerism is nowhere alike calling for someone or something to be ignored for dangerous ideas; the former makes no claim to defining the terms of acceptable and unacceptable discourse, the latter intrinsically wishes to set the debate in terms of what is acceptable (my beliefs) and what is extremist, dangerous, radical, fringe (my opponent's). It is why supporting Brexit in Metropolitan UK will garner a widely different reaction than if you had expressed such sentiments in the rest of the UK; it is why there is so much protest to our government's authority to prosecute those who hold beliefs the government adjudicates as unacceptable. Slippery slope covered in lube

People saying "science doesnt matter, research doesnt matter, if we believe in ourselves and ignore everyone who says we're wrong we can make [arbitary nation state] great again!" is dangerous, and that should be obvious no matter what your opinions on the Brexit vote are. Don't make the mistake of automatically taking the side of liars and demagogues just because they're on your side any more than anti-brexit people should defend people who say Brexit will make us drift out into the atlantic and sink.

I thought I already made it clear I don't trust Boris. Much of the pro-Brexit Tories are cut from the exact same cloth as their pro-EU peers, and will pursue the same policy unless removed, albeit with the improvement that we shall be disengaged from the EU's institutions.

*EDIT
Regarding dangerous speech, yeah nah we're up to 9 arrests per day for trolling. If you allow anyone to say what you believe in is dangerous you're asking for the future you get

[TD1]

Indeed. Brexit is the suppression of but one symptom caused by the nation's insanity. More will need to be done before we actually have politicians whose views are endorsed by the public, and have those views tolerated by the Commie university system which births our politicians.

[scriver]

To our fellow forum goers who rolled their eyes a few weeks ago when we brought up human trafficking and organized crime in regards to beggars. Badly google translated article here.

[Loud Whispers]

Indeed. Brexit is the suppression of but one symptom caused by the nation's insanity. More will need to be done before we actually have politicians whose views are endorsed by the public, and have those views tolerated by the Commie university system which births our politicians.

I think we're somewhat buggered, because we'll always be seen through the lens that we are just the European versions of American revanchism. Everyone hears us chant "Johnny make Great Britain gr8 m8" when we say "there is little hope for the future of the UK or our leaders." Ditto for hopes regarding the EU but that's a given

To our fellow forum goers who rolled their eyes a few weeks ago when we brought up human trafficking and organized crime in regards to beggars. Badly google translated article here.

Could be worse, in SE Asia there were issues with gangs who did the same thing as the Bulgarians, with added amputation in order to make beggars more sympathetic/less capable of resisting. At least the human trafficking is beginning to be addressed

[MorleyDev]

Sorry for the constant edits with things, keep thinking of different/better phrasings or other little points. Also flat-out forgot to finish a point or two, like forgetting to mention the whole "open letters from professors" when in my head that was the main point I was going (got distracted by a jenkins build failing, my mistake). Anyhoo:

I also call certain religious attitudes dangerous and a threat to the progression towards a fairer society (the 'fabric of society', as it were), doesn't mean I'm calling for violent suppression of those religious attitudes, just an evaluation and reflection on the risks associated with an attitude or belief.

I posed open letters not just of Vice Chancellors. But I may have added them over several edits as I found them, been a sleep since then and now so don't remember. Anyway, those open letters show it's not just Vice Chancellors. Lots of regular professors in those ones.

As for that we would still have some access to EU universities, you seem arguing that they are saying the options are "no access" or "full access", but the problem is we would have reduced access to the talent and networks. Horizon 2020 and it's predecessors and successors are programs that, through their structures and centralised funding systems and such, provide encouragement and benefit for the international co-operation between universities as well as businesses that can reduce the hoops needed and impediments to jump through to set-up such co-operation.

Universities and research programs would have to go about it the longer, slower, and often less likely to get approved by all parties way. That is what losing access means.

I think we're somewhat buggered, because we'll always be seen through the lens that we are just the European versions of American revanchism. Everyone hears us chant "Johnny make Great Britain gr8 m8" when we say "there is little hope for the future of the UK or our leaders."

Problem is, if you go onto facebook there are a disturbing number of people who are basically chanting "Johnny make Great Britain gr8 m8". The Express, The Sun and the Daily Heil haven't exactly gone out of business either, and keep selling copies basically pushing that exact line (with all the xenophobia and racism embedded in it's meaning). It's hard to not take that view when people other than the newspapers seem to be going out of their way to reinforce it. You can argue vocal minority, but I don't know anybody who doesn't have at least one family member who is part of that vocal 'minority'.

[Loud Whispers]

Why would go on facebook

That's like willingly reading comment sections

[ChairmanPoo]

I have to confess that I take a perverse pleasure in reading comment sections.  Sometimes I skip the article and go to the comment section directly.

[Rowanas]

I have to confess that I take a perverse pleasure in reading comment sections.  Sometimes I skip the article and go to the comment section directly.

I like to read the article first, but.... yeah.

I get a heady mix of feeling superior, righteous anger and vindicated despair.

[Loud Whispers]

The English language has three words for the feeling of superiority, righteous anger can arguably be represented with zeal, but we lack a word for vindicated despair

[Kagus]

but we lack a word for vindicated despair

Millenial?

[Ziusudra]

The English language has three words for the feeling of superiority, righteous anger can arguably be represented with zeal, but we lack a word for vindicated despair

Defeatism?

[Rowanas]

The English language has three words for the feeling of superiority, righteous anger can arguably be represented with zeal, but we lack a word for vindicated despair

Defeatism?

Nah, defeatism is preemptive despair.  LW makes a bold point though, i had never really thought about it, and i'm a human thesaurus - I'll give it some thought this afternoon.