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[redwallzyl]

LW, is you entire strategy to repeat misleading right wing talking points?

?
What do you mean by this

I mean that you constantly repeat various things that tend to be basically right wing scaremongering.

[Grim Portent]

The main problem I would have with an EU wide centrally controlled army is that armies tend to have better recruitment among certain demographics, and those demographics vary by region. Somewhere is going to bleed more just because it's people view military service as more desirable than somewhere else does and that's going to lead to resentment down the line.

[Il Palazzo]

The main problem I would have with an EU wide centrally controlled army is that armies tend to have better recruitment among certain demographics, and those demographics vary by region. Somewhere is going to bleed more just because it's people view military service as more desirable than somewhere else does and that's going to lead to resentment down the line.

Is there such resentment in the US among the states?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There is some, actually - the poorer and rural states source more military personnel, and there's all the tension you'd expect regarding that.

[Il Palazzo]

There is some, actually - the poorer and rural states source more military personnel, and there's all the tension you'd expect regarding that.

I don't know what I should expect, though. What form do these tensions take? Culturally, politically, economically? Some other -ly?

[smjjames]

The main problem I would have with an EU wide centrally controlled army is that armies tend to have better recruitment among certain demographics, and those demographics vary by region. Somewhere is going to bleed more just because it's people view military service as more desirable than somewhere else does and that's going to lead to resentment down the line.

Would it be better or worse than any particular national army in Europe currently?

The main problem I would have with an EU wide centrally controlled army is that armies tend to have better recruitment among certain demographics, and those demographics vary by region. Somewhere is going to bleed more just because it's people view military service as more desirable than somewhere else does and that's going to lead to resentment down the line.

Is there such resentment in the US among the states?

In the context of poor people getting drafted more than rich people, there can be, but in the context of people from x state not bleeding as much as y state, not that I know of. Sure, there can be a higher concentration from more populous states, but it's pretty evenly spread out.

I don't know if any such resentment ever existed after the Revolutionary War (there were certainly some tensions between colonies in the early days).

There is some, actually - the poorer and rural states source more military personnel, and there's all the tension you'd expect regarding that.

Yeah theres that, but I imagine every country on Earth has similar tensions, so, an EU army would still be dealing with things that militaries have always dealt with.

So, unless the demographics Grim Portent is talking aren't rural and/or poor people, I'm not sure an EU wide army would have a problem with it if the recruitment is done relatively evenly among it's members. There would of course, be disparities between countries with small populations vs large populations, so, some disparity would be unavoidable.

There is some, actually - the poorer and rural states source more military personnel, and there's all the tension you'd expect regarding that.

I don't know what I should expect, though. What form do these tensions take? Culturally, politically, economically? Some other -ly?

It's more along political lines I think, but if you want real tension, you'd have to look back to Vietnam. Since it's a volunteer military, not draft, I'm not really aware of any tensions.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Joining the military is often seen as the economic "out" for people in rural areas. While I'm sure the military would be right-wing anyway, it's very right-wing and I think the limited selection has something to do with it. There's sort of an unspoken assumption that "conservatives fight for America, liberals go to college" which causes all manner of alienation and bad sentiment.

[smjjames]

Yeah that's what I was thinking of, mainly political along the rural/urban divide, which also happens to be the political divide.

Institute the draft though and everybody gets angry.

And yeah, while the military tries its hardest to be apolitical, military politics definetly trend right wing.

I don't know if Grim Portent was referring to poor/rural people by demographics or something else, but if he meant different population sizes between different countries, that shouldn't be a problem if they're evenly spread out.

The one place where accusations of favoritism might occur wouldn't be in the lower ranks, it'd be the upper echelons. Though I can see where accusations of <people from x country> don't bleed enough or bleed too much come from if an EU military isn't viewed as completely unified or something.

[redwallzyl]

There are also substantial recruitment from poor minorities. In the US that most often means African Americas and Hispanics. I think generally minorities have high representation. You might see similar things in EU armies.

[smjjames]

Which, again, is something that every nation in history has done or has to deal with. So, I don't see it as a disqualifying factor, just something it and the EU consituent nations have to deal with.

More aggrivating before full EU federalization would be the appearance of favoritism from a particular nation(s) or region, or maybe a general in a region who isn't from that region or something. Then again, NATO?

[Grim Portent]

My primary concern was the different economic strengths of different countries in the EU. If joining the EU army was a reliable and decent paycheck that's going to be more appealing to someone from a poorer country with a mediocre wellfare system than it is to someone from a wealthier nation with a decent wellfare system.

Within countries that's not usually too much of an issue by itself except on ethical/moral grounds because major cultural divides are usually on the way out due to homogenisation of the citizenry, between countries who have long histories of animosity that's only relatively recently buried in some cases it could lead to international and ethnic resentment as large groups feel exploited by an outgroup.

That said, the actual enlistment trends of each EU nation are probably quite variable, I expect some countries have more working class people in their armies, others more middle class and I have no idea how things would shake out over 20 or 30 years in practice. Some countries are also still more proud of military service than others and more likely to serve on patriotic grounds. Depends on how they advertise and incentivise military service.


To clarify a bit more, I'd not be bothered by the EU army being almost entirely composed of people from some of the member nations and barely featuring people from others, military service is fundamentally a choice that different groups are going to make in different amounts, but I'd be concerned it would be somewhat rigged to wind up that way, or even if not rigged that it would be percieved as rigged after a few military setbacks result in people dying.

[smjjames]

My primary concern was the different economic strengths of different countries in the EU. If joining the EU army was a reliable and decent paycheck that's going to be more appealing to someone from a poorer country with a mediocre wellfare system than it is to someone from a wealthier nation with a decent wellfare system.

There are some states which are pretty poor, but I don't think theres any animosity over that. Then again, the wealth disparities between EU countries would be greater than the richest US state and the poorest US state.

Within countries that's not usually too much of an issue by itself except on ethical/moral grounds because major cultural divides are usually on the way out due to homogenisation of the citizenry, between countries who have long histories of animosity that's only relatively recently buried in some cases it could lead to international and ethnic resentment as large groups feel exploited by an outgroup.

The only ones I'd be worried about going at each others throats atm are the Balkan states. Though otherwise you do have a point about international and ethnic resentment if there is perception of being exploited, and you don't have to look very far back in the past to see that (referring to Austria-Hungary and their slavic subjects).

That said, the actual enlistment trends of each EU nation are probably quite variable, I expect some countries have more working class people in their armies, others more middle class and I have no idea how things would shake out over 20 or 30 years in practice. Some countries are also still more proud of military service than others and more likely to serve on patriotic grounds. Depends on how they advertise and incentivise military service.


To clarify a bit more, I'd not be bothered by the EU army being almost entirely composed of people from some of the member nations and barely featuring people from others, military service is fundamentally a choice that different groups are going to make in different amounts, but I'd be concerned it would be somewhat rigged to wind up that way, or even if not rigged that it would be percieved as rigged after a few military setbacks result in people dying.

Yeah, some disparity is going to be unavoidable just due to population differences.

[hector13]

Official Leave campaign found to have broken electoral law.

[smjjames]

So, what does that mean exactly for Brexit?

[Reelya]

There are also substantial recruitment from poor minorities. In the US that most often means African Americas and Hispanics. I think generally minorities have high representation. You might see similar things in EU armies.

The interesting thing is that in the UK, racial minorities are under-represented compared to the general population, to the extent that they want to boost attractiveness of service to minorities in order to reach diversity quotas.

 The reasons that America veers the other way could relate to the history - there was no black slavery era in England anything like that in the USA, and the UK has much more of a safety net for the poor compared to America. USA has a fairly large pool of poor black labor who've traditionally done the shittiest jobs, so sending them off to war would be a predictable outcome of that. If anyone fits that role in English history, it's Scots and Irish, not blacks.