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[Loud Whispers]

So there is the heart of the issue. Looks pretty obvious to me that the issue is with Denmarks whole approach and perception of immigrants being basically exactly the opposite of what it should be.

Counterpoint: The existence of Sweden

Do you understand that what made that bad is that European colonists went to other places (or persecuted nations native to within their own borders) and then said "your nation isn't good, you have to be English/Spanish/French/Russian now", by force of arms, regardless of what the people of those nations wanted?l
Do you see how that was completely different situation from Denmark wanting to make sure that people who has chosen to immigrate to their country, completely voluntary, actually integrate into their nation?

In the case of Spain, the Spanish did not enforce the teaching of language by force of arms, the teaching of Spanish was conducted by the Catholic church which had a complicated relationship with the Spanish crown (with the Catholic church being split between supporting the Spanish encomienda or going into outright revolt against Spanish authority in defence of the natives). British and French did not do so by force of arms either, using instead sophisticated forms of control & incentive, like prestige and concepts of Westernization = success to convince native elites that Western education was the way forwards to modernity & should be spread to their people. Cultural imperialism vs imperialism, the former is considerably more tricksy, because the absence of bayonets does little to affect its power. In the case of Russia they just did as the Mongols & Communists did. Can't have heritage if everything is deleted

[smjjames]

@LW: Even so, what Denmark is trying to do doesn't deal with those there and now (unless you want to relitigate the 'deport everybody! Including the sweet Algerian grandmas!' BS).

Uh, cultural indoctrination Denmark? Makes me think of some of the worst practices that Westerners had with indengenous peoples. There may also be undertones of Nazi in there, but in general, it just has the undertones of how Europeans have treated places that they've colonized and also places with a persecuted minority.

Do you understand that what made that bad is that European colonists went to other places (or persecuted nations native to within their own borders) and then said "your nation isn't good, you have to be English/Spanish/French/Russian now", by force of arms, regardless of what the people of those nations wanted?l

Do you see how that was completely different situation from Denmark wanting to make sure that people who has chosen to immigrate to their country, completely voluntary, actually integrate into their nation?

I get that they're different situations, it's the whole methodology that I'm calling out.

Maybe instead of abandoning those who are already there and trying to work with the next generation, they (also) help the adults already there?

[redwallzyl]

So there is the heart of the issue. Looks pretty obvious to me that the issue is with Denmarks whole approach and perception of immigrants being basically exactly the opposite of what it should be.

Counterpoint: The existence of Sweden

When I say opposite that is not what I mean. Also bad memes are bad.

Have I managed to wall of text a LW discussion and get a single line in response? Are you sure your the real LW?

[Loud Whispers]

@LW: Even so, what Denmark is trying to do doesn't deal with those there and now (unless you want to relitigate the 'deport everybody! Including the sweet Algerian grandmas!' BS).

Wot? I'm not saying send everyone to an Aussie prison colony. I'm saying giving kids the education they need to advance in education, career prospects and societal advancement will make the kids happy. The effects of that do not happen in isolation, families do this thing where they communicate with one another - a parent is not likely to look down on a society their kid is rising in, getting Uni placements, high-tier technical and leadership jobs e.t.c..

Maybe instead of abandoning those who are already there and trying to work with the next generation, they (also) help the adults already there?

Denmark's got some of the greatest social welfare and state institutions in the world, what barriers remain are geographical, ethnic, cultural, religious and economic. Geography cannot really be changed, if your country is a bunch of small islands people cannot often literally afford the luxury of choosing where to live, building divides between those who are nationally/internationally mobile and those who are not. Ethnic divides can only be worked upon in the timescale of civilizations; Eastern Europeans are treated as Western Europeans with exotic surnames at the second generation by white Europeans, but non-white lineages will always be treated as exotic, alien, foreign until such time as the lineage is assimilated or Europeans stop such subconscious and conscious patterns of racism. Culture & religion is pretty simple as long as you have peace, communication and time on your hands. Economic is much more easily done with the next generation than the first, since teaching someone Danish, science, maths & then teaching them from secondary to University level takes time. Of the few workers who are capable of doing 20 years of education in 3, you then have to get them into lucrative Danish careers with no work experience.

Teaching kids all of this stuff & getting them the experience is all stuff the Danes have been doing for ages, and they're good at it. Thus it clearly makes the most sense to always focus on the future where the investment yields the most dramatic changes than the present, where it already is gone

When I say opposite that is not what I mean. Also bad memes are bad.

Have I managed to wall of text a LW discussion and get a single line in response? Are you sure your the real LW?

What more is there to say? The existence of historical diaspora is not the same as making your people into a minority, nor does perception / expectations of migrants eliminate the agency of migrants. At the end of the day, all individuals choose whether they move with or move contrary to the various Western Factions' notions of not being a dickhead to thy neighbour. Be as the Swede and welcome the world into your heart; be surprised not when the world sells it and moves into the free real estate in your head

[redwallzyl]

making your people into a minority

Total strawman, seriously this sort of hyperbole is not helpful.

perception / expectations of migrants eliminate the agency of migrants

It is a massive factor in why migrants are in the situation they are in. also it is not the only factor mentioned.

move with or move contrary

The issue is that they are automatically assumed to be contrary.

Swede

Still a meme.

[Loud Whispers]

Total strawman, seriously this sort of hyperbole is not helpful.

It's called London, not strawman

It is a massive factor in why migrants are in the situation they are in. also it is not the only factor mentioned.

It's a severe inflation of how important European opinion actually is to migrants who don't live with Europeans

The issue is that they are automatically assumed to be contrary.

Assume? The world does not think the same

Still a meme.

Sweden is literally a meme state at this point

[ChairmanPoo]

You know, people here have zeroed on the stuff about immigrants, I'm guessing because it's where the onus of that effort is focused, but what actually drew my attention are the guettos themselves. My overall impression is that when a collective starts to marginalize and locks down on a guetto/camp/whatnot... that's when the troubles actually start. The problem is not as much immigrants and their culture, in my opinion, as the marginalization of said immigrants (the one that is inflicted by their circumstances... and the one that is self inflicted. That happens too).

You don't even need the marginalized people to be immigrants for this to cause trouble (I'm going to avoid opening the can of worms that would be naming which group or groups have this happen to them in Europe). It's a very difficult problem to tackle, and I don't know what's the right answer. I do feel that integrating people in the guetto in non marginalized neighbourhoods is a well-meant approach... but regrettably frictions can arise. Maybe it would be better to invest into a marginal-zone rehabilitation-education approach? I don't know.

[Loud Whispers]

You know, people here have zeroed on the stuff about immigrants, I'm guessing because it's where the onus of that effort is focused, but what actually drew my attention are the guettos themselves. My overall impression is that when a collective starts to marginalize and locks down on a guetto/camp/whatnot... that's when the troubles actually start. The problem is not as much immigrants and their culture, in my opinion, as the marginalization of said immigrants (the one that is inflicted by their circumstances... and the one that is self inflicted. That happens too).

You don't even need the marginalized people to be immigrants for this to cause trouble (I'm going to avoid opening the can of worms that would be naming which group or groups have this happen to them in Europe). It's a very difficult problem to tackle, and I don't know what's the right answer. I do feel that integrating people in the guetto in non marginalized neighbourhoods is a well-meant approach... but regrettably frictions can arise. Maybe it would be better to invest into a marginal-zone rehabilitation-education approach? I don't know.

Eliminating the ghettoes doesn't solve the higher tiers of needs required to satisfy deep quality of life in the Western world. Migrants & their descendants who live in areas with good education, healthcare, jobs and good policing will still be unfulfilled if social mobility is retarded or obstructed for them. Hence why getting rid of ghetto areas and run down council estates is a start, but insufficient for running a just and prosperous migrantified world. Social mobility, in education, careers & social standing are all vital. One generation an unskilled labourer, the next a plumber, the next a professor, the next a civil director e.t.c., the promise of hard work translating into advancement is imo vital to getting different groups of people to become one people

[redwallzyl]

LW, is you entire strategy to repeat misleading right wing talking points?

[smjjames]

I checked back at the article and it doesn't sound like they're trying to lock down on 'ghettos' in the sense of isolating them from the rest of society, but they are talking about razing some neghborhoods to the ground. I know little of what these 'ghettos' actually look like, but I doubt most, or any of them look like shanty slums and demolising an entire section of a city or town sounds like a very poor way of dealing with the population they're trying to deal with.

You know, people here have zeroed on the stuff about immigrants, I'm guessing because it's where the onus of that effort is focused, but what actually drew my attention are the guettos themselves. My overall impression is that when a collective starts to marginalize and locks down on a guetto/camp/whatnot... that's when the troubles actually start. The problem is not as much immigrants and their culture, in my opinion, as the marginalization of said immigrants (the one that is inflicted by their circumstances... and the one that is self inflicted. That happens too).

You don't even need the marginalized people to be immigrants for this to cause trouble (I'm going to avoid opening the can of worms that would be naming which group or groups have this happen to them in Europe). It's a very difficult problem to tackle, and I don't know what's the right answer. I do feel that integrating people in the guetto in non marginalized neighbourhoods is a well-meant approach... but regrettably frictions can arise. Maybe it would be better to invest into a marginal-zone rehabilitation-education approach? I don't know.

Eliminating the ghettoes doesn't solve the higher tiers of needs required to satisfy deep quality of life in the Western world. Migrants & their descendants who live in areas with good education, healthcare, jobs and good policing will still be unfulfilled if social mobility is retarded or obstructed for them. Hence why getting rid of ghetto areas and run down council estates is a start, but insufficient for running a just and prosperous migrantified world. Social mobility, in education, careers & social standing are all vital. One generation an unskilled labourer, the next a plumber, the next a professor, the next a civil director e.t.c., the promise of hard work translating into advancement is imo vital to getting different groups of people to become one people

If those areas look as decrept as abandoned cities with nomads wandering around, then yeah, I'd get removing them, but otherwise it makes no sense and you're just pushing those people into another part of the country (with an obvious message of 'GET OUT! WE DON"T WANT YOU!' to make them leave the country). It'd be a lot easier and less expensive to deal with the problem in situ.

LW, is you entire strategy to repeat misleading right wing talking points?

His latest post doesn't sound like one.

[redwallzyl]

LW, is you entire strategy to repeat misleading right wing talking points?

His latest post doesn't sound like one.

The one before that one.

[Loud Whispers]

LW, is you entire strategy to repeat misleading right wing talking points?

?
What do you mean by this

[smjjames]

Thread shunt attempt

NATO would be a good template to work with though since it already has to deal with exactly the same problems that an unified EU military would have.

Except the whole seizing control of foreign militaries thing

Maybe they could pledge a portion of their own forces in a time of need? Though I guess that sounds too much like levies or something.

[Loud Whispers]

Maybe they could pledge a portion of their own forces in a time of need? Though I guess that sounds too much like levies or something.

Nah, that'd be the worst of all worlds. NATO status quo or EU army are the best options for the EU. If they do the latter my only concern would be that they do so fairly: Nothing would depress my spirits further than to see wealthy Euro nations paying in equipment while poorer Euro nations pay in blood to engage in Euro military operations. Keep the manpower commitments fair, live up to the Eurovalues.

Oh, and I suppose what the EU did with France's nuclear arsenal would also be a concern. I don't think the EU would consider drastically expanding its own nuclear arsenal though, even with Russia being belligerent

[smjjames]

It was just an idea off the top of my head and it sounds too much like levies to me anyway. In the EUs current state, an EU army would probably be some system that hasn't been tried in history or I have no idea.

In it's current state, before federalization, a NATO type deal seems like it'd work best.

Spain is, I believe, the most highly decentralized nation with a federation/confederation style setup and they have a national army, so, there's probably a transition point somewhere.