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[ChairmanPoo]

@Chairmanpoo: Or maybe it's because there are writers who are on both sides of Brexit, I'd hardly call Politico a russianbot site.

Just look arouund the site a bit and you'll see. That's not journalism

It may be exaggerated a bit, but as mentioned at the bottom of this BBC article, they're definetly making an issue out of North Ireland.

It's not that "they" are making an issue of NI. It's that the GFA was based on a series of xonsitions that effectively break down on Brexit. Therefore there is an impossible conundrum.

[spoiler]
Anyways, yeah, the whole removing of North Ireland is pretty extraordinary. I get how NI politics, particularily rejoining the rest of Ireland, might play into it, but still.
[/quote]
Notice that is not what is being negotiated

Also, in hindsight, I guess that article I linked is more of an opinion piece without really stating that it is.

Yeah. That should make you suspicious 
I mean its not like any media is neutral, ever, but politico.eu are consistently the worst source

I guess the point is more that if Brussels doesn't change their position, a political crisis is all but inevitable. Plus the fact that they're running out of time (December is the latest that they can get something signed which will be able to go into effect by next March) and whatever comes out of this big meeting on Friday might be their last chance. Or maybe it'll be the last chance for Theresa May as it seems to imply.

A political crisis is unevitable, if it ever was evitable.  May's goverment wants a bespoke deal and can't accept anything else because their party is pretty much split about Brexit (much like Labor). A bespoke deal is not acceptable to the 27, because it's bending the rules of the SM further than they can or want to afford, particularily at a time of crisis.  I'm pretty sure there's going to be a hard border because there was no way to square the circle with that, and on the other hand odds are we are heading to a no deal Brexit because time is running out already and there is no agreement in sight, and little prospect that there will be.

If you notice both the UK and EU institutions are beginnimg to hint that "although it might be unlikely"  people would better prepare for a no deal brexit, "just in case".   I think it's pretty clear that while noone will admit to this because of the fallout, everyone acknowledges it's going to happen, for good or ill.

[smjjames]

Uh, cultural indoctrination Denmark? Makes me think of some of the worst practices that Westerners had with indengenous peoples. There may also be undertones of Nazi in there, but in general, it just has the undertones of how Europeans have treated places that they've colonized and also places with a persecuted minority.

I get they're trying to deal with their problems, but they're going about it the wrong way. Do you think the US does it that way? I'd say the best way to do it is to copy the US since we're pretty much able to do it without thinking how do we do it. There's never any discussions about people not assimilating since it seems to just happen.

[ChairmanPoo]

Uh, cultural indoctrination Denmark? Makes me think of some of the worst practices that Westerners had with indengenous peoples. There may also be undertones of Nazi in there, but in general, it just has the undertones of how Europeans have treated places that they've colonized and also places with a persecuted minority.

I get they're trying to deal with their problems, but they're going about it the wrong way. Do you think the US does it that way? I'd say the best way to do it is to copy the US since we're pretty much able to do it without thinking how do we do it. There's never any discussions about people not assimilating since it seems to just happen.

Oh you mean taking immigrant children away from their parents and sending them to different internment camps with little record of who is who?

Seriously smj, for the last two days you seem to be on a bender of emulating crass american stereotypes. Don't you think you have to be more careful before giving strong opinions about issues of which you have limited first hand info? Particularily throwing a Godwin while you're doing them? Particularily when you're setting your own country as an example, and your goverment was shown doing far worse just a couple of weeks ago?

[Loud Whispers]

Uh, cultural indoctrination Denmark? Makes me think of some of the worst practices that Westerners had with indengenous peoples. There may also be undertones of Nazi in there, but in general, it just has the undertones of how Europeans have treated places that they've colonized and also places with a persecuted minority.

I get they're trying to deal with their problems, but they're going about it the wrong way. Do you think the US does it that way? I'd say the best way to do it is to copy the US since we're pretty much able to do it without thinking how do we do it. There's never any discussions about people not assimilating since it seems to just happen.

Once children turn 1, they will be required to attend daycare centers for at least 25 hours a week, where they will be taught about the Danish culture and language, including Christian holidays such as Christmas and Easter. If parents refuse to send their children, they could lose their welfare benefits.

Yeah those Nazi Danes, teaching the kids they're financially supporting the Danish language & holidays. How will Denmark ever recover, teaching kids in Denmark Danish

Regarding USA, there has been neverending debate over whether the USA should be multicultural or assimilative, and its exiting population is split cleanly in half over what the hell American values are. Couple that with Americans not caring about culture, White Americans stereotyped as holding shitty pop and starbucks as their cultural milestones, and the more significant marker of US cultural dominance of the world meaning migrants coming to the US are:
-likely from wealthy backgrounds
-were educated in the US
-proficient with English
-have the money needed to avoid economic segregation or crime
-meaning US migrants are Americans before they're Americans. No one in Chad is learning Danish. But they're learning English, watching American films & listening to American music while drinking American drinks. That America is the wealthiest country in the world with a whole lot of useful, cheap land available for migrants helps too, not least to say the population size matters. In short, it's rather cheeky to say Denmark's run afoul here when Americans will not allow for legal naturalization without a knowledge of US history, culture & language, while it demands all of its pupils to learn English in school. It is the basic fundamentals of a state to function, to not even say of the nation.

Denmark does a lot of things wrong. For example, they're Denmark. Yet this is just common sense.

[hector13]

T’be fair to smj, those dudes are folk who crossed the border illegally (however ridiculous it is to criminalize crossing an imaginary line) and Trump is a bit of a racist. Main issue with that is some of these guys are asylum seekers.

Anyhow, the article says that one of the three criteria the government apparently looks at is if a community is more than half non-western immigrants. That is also a bit racist.

And then the parting comment in the article is the prime minister saying he doesn’t recognize some parts of his country, though it doesn’t have any context beyond “he said it in March”.

[smjjames]

Uh, cultural indoctrination Denmark? Makes me think of some of the worst practices that Westerners had with indengenous peoples. There may also be undertones of Nazi in there, but in general, it just has the undertones of how Europeans have treated places that they've colonized and also places with a persecuted minority.

I get they're trying to deal with their problems, but they're going about it the wrong way. Do you think the US does it that way? I'd say the best way to do it is to copy the US since we're pretty much able to do it without thinking how do we do it. There's never any discussions about people not assimilating since it seems to just happen.

Oh you mean taking immigrant children away from their parents and sending them to different internment camps with little record of who is who?

Seriously smj, for the last two days you seem to be on a bender of emulating crass american stereotypes. Don't you think you have to be more careful before giving strong opinions about issues of which you have limited first hand info? Particularily throwing a Godwin while you're doing them? Particularily when you're setting your own country as an example, and your goverment was shown doing far worse just a couple of weeks ago?

I'm not a Trump supporter btw, not clear if you know that or not. And I'm not trying to tell Europe what to do (which would be the sterotypical American), just give my opinion.

And throwing a godwin was going a bit too far there, I'd half considered it, but....

Uh, cultural indoctrination Denmark? Makes me think of some of the worst practices that Westerners had with indengenous peoples. There may also be undertones of Nazi in there, but in general, it just has the undertones of how Europeans have treated places that they've colonized and also places with a persecuted minority.

I get they're trying to deal with their problems, but they're going about it the wrong way. Do you think the US does it that way? I'd say the best way to do it is to copy the US since we're pretty much able to do it without thinking how do we do it. There's never any discussions about people not assimilating since it seems to just happen.

Once children turn 1, they will be required to attend daycare centers for at least 25 hours a week, where they will be taught about the Danish culture and language, including Christian holidays such as Christmas and Easter. If parents refuse to send their children, they could lose their welfare benefits.

Yeah those Nazi Danes, teaching the kids they're financially supporting the Danish language & holidays. How will Denmark ever recover, teaching kids in Denmark Danish

Regarding USA, there has been neverending debate over whether the USA should be multicultural or assimilative, and its exiting population is split cleanly in half over what the hell American values are. Couple that with Americans not caring about culture, White Americans stereotyped as holding shitty pop and starbucks as their cultural milestones, and the more significant marker of US cultural dominance of the world meaning migrants coming to the US are:
-likely from wealthy backgrounds
-were educated in the US
-proficient with English
-have the money needed to avoid economic segregation or crime
-meaning US migrants are Americans before they're Americans. No one in Chad is learning Danish. But they're learning English, watching American films & listening to American music while drinking American drinks. That America is the wealthiest country in the world with a whole lot of useful, cheap land available for migrants helps too, not least to say the population size matters. In short, it's rather cheeky to say Denmark's run afoul here when Americans will not allow for legal naturalization without a knowledge of US history, culture & language, while it demands all of its pupils to learn English in school. It is the basic fundamentals of a state to function, to not even say of the nation.

Denmark does a lot of things wrong. For example, they're Denmark. Yet this is just common sense.

You Brits are one to talk when it comes to naturalization too. The difference though is that these are kids we are talking about and they're being forced to attend school with the pretext of making them not assimilate any of their parents culture, which is totally different from simply attending a normal school.

[Loud Whispers]

You Brits are one to talk when it comes to naturalization too. The difference though is that these are kids we are talking about and they're being forced to attend school with the pretext of making them not assimilate any of their parents culture, which is totally different from simply attending a normal school.

I am confused? Apologies for miscommunicating, but I support naturalization, not oppose it. I certainly am one to talk about the UK's naturalization process, my Mother just completed it a year ago
http://home.bt.com/news/news-extra/quiz-could-you-pass-a-uk-citizenship-test-11364233167703
Recommend you take the test. Impossible to get any wrong, except the trick question about the channel islands, where they are represented by the UK but are their own dudes. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know if this is unusual in America, but in every European nation, child education is mandatory for all children. Thus mandatory education for kids doesn't phase me in the slightest, what's more I have no idea where you get the notion that they won't inherit their parent's culture, these aren't boarding schools. What the Danes are doing is making sure you don't have teenagers living in Denmark their whole lives who can't speak, read or write Danish and can't pass secondary exams, barring them from higher education and advancement. That's seems like dumbo jumbo to me

[Grim Portent]

I can see a problem with teaching Muslim children to celebrate Easter and Christmas, since both are Christian holidays and that steps on their family beliefs.

For a naturalisation course the only things I'd consider actually important is the language, basic social customs and gestures, and the basic everyday legal system which an immigrant child's parents may still be learning themselves. The holidays and religious customs of the largest theological group in the country seems completely irrelevant.

[smjjames]

Well, it certainly seems to imply that they don't want the kids to inherit some of their parents culture.

I can see a problem with teaching Muslim children to celebrate Easter and Christmas, since both are Christian holidays and that steps on their family beliefs.

For a naturalisation course the only things I'd consider actually important is the language, basic social customs and gestures, and the basic everyday legal system which an immigrant child's parents may still be learning themselves. The holidays and religious customs of the largest theological group in the country seems completely irrelevant.

Yeah, the religion thing is the part of what I was getting at.

[redwallzyl]

Not allowing kids to have any of there parents culture is a terrible idea. There is a specific name for when that happens, dissonant assimilation. It is associated with basically every negative effect on both the child and parents you can think of. This is well known to people who study assimilation.

This reminds me of that massive book I found on the Denmark immigrant situation. Book as it very large scientific book. I wonder what it has to say about the specific issues in Denmark. I also wonder if any politician has bothered to read it.

[hector13]

Well, the Danish immigration minister recently told Muslims observing Ramadan to stay home so as not to cause accidents at work, without citing any statistics regarding the incidence of workplace accidents involving Muslims (or anyone) fasting, so I doubt it.

[smjjames]

It's not entirely clear that is actually their plan, but it certainly sounds like what they're aiming for.

I'm not against them teaching danish, it's the whole appearance of saying that the kids cannot do anything related to their parents culture.

LW does have a point that American culture is so dominant that immigrants coming in are often already partially 'Americanized', as it were.

Also, LW, I do support learning basic stuff (what would be considered 'basics' can be endlessly debated), I was just going 'hey, Britain does that stuff too' as far as history, etc go.

Well, the Danish immigration minister recently told Muslims observing Ramadan to stay home so as not to cause accidents at work, without citing any statistics regarding the incidence of workplace accidents involving Muslims (or anyone) fasting, so I doubt it.

On the face of it, the question is a legit concern, but if one really wanted to find the answers to that, there's a whole world of muslim majority regions and countries to look at.

[Loud Whispers]

I can see a problem with teaching Muslim children to celebrate Easter and Christmas, since both are Christian holidays and that steps on their family beliefs.

...?
In the UK we teach Christian kids Muslim holidays, Danish Muslims learning Christian holidays will not compel them to holiday if they don't want to, it's ultimately up to the kid. Keeping children culturally ignorant of their country is not how you create a functional, communicative society, it's how you create two societies and trucks in Christmas markets

For a naturalisation course the only things I'd consider actually important is the language, basic social customs and gestures, and the basic everyday legal system which an immigrant child's parents may still be learning themselves. The holidays and religious customs of the largest theological group in the country seems completely irrelevant.

If I wrote the criteria, it'd be:
1. Residency
2. Language
3. Essential customs instead of basic customs
4. Essential law
5. Essential history & politics
6. And a demonstration of basic knowledge of the country

#1 obviously highest priority, someone who has stayed in your country for any long length of time has shown they are attached to your country and aren't just passing through. #2, #3, #4 for pragmatic & civic reasons, #5 so they're a citizen and not a resident, who understands how the state works, why it's like that and how they can participate. #6 just proves that all the time they've spent in #1 hasn't been spent isolated. Neglecting religious customs & holidays of the largest theological groups is pure folly, the goal is to reduce cultural miscommunication not increase it. You confuse proselytizing with education; education cannot be a one-way street, all must at least crudely understand what others believe & why, and know that it's ok to believe differently. Especially since you can't treat old world religion as a passing demographic trend to be gone with the death of the last Christians, when the blasted faith has carved its influence into 2,000 years of custom, philosophy and governance which has shaped the nations of Europe, having outlived the localized death of the faith itself.

.
I'm not against them teaching danish, it's the whole appearance of saying that the kids cannot do anything related to their parents culture.
LW does have a point that American culture is so dominant that immigrants coming in are often already partially 'Americanized', as it were.
Also, LW, I do support learning basic stuff (what would be considered 'basics' can be endlessly debated), I was just going 'hey, Britain does that stuff too' as far as history, etc go.

The kids will learn from their parents at home, the Danes are not invading the homespace, they're integrating the next generation into Danish society. The result is to foster syncretism, to which Americans pretending most Muslims and Christians in Europe don't already celebrate Christmas and Easter as national holidays and know fuck all about its religious connotations lol. Where I grew up, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus & Christian kids all celebrate Christmas together, giving each other gifts and all that. Trying to isolate Muslim kids from Christian kids is a step backwards from unity in favour of full retardation, and is something not even Muslim countries do. I can't believe that after all this time Western nations still can't figure out why they export more jihadists than Muslim nations when they pull off stricter rules for isolating Muslims from the general 'other' populace than sharia compliant nations. Come to Malaysia during Christmas, the country is ruled on all levels except urban morning food markets by Muslims and is majority Muslim, yet by Christmas you'll see the fake snow decked out in the tropical heat all over place. I seriously cannot understand the depths of the retardation of Western liberalism, that it says nationalism is bad, religious fundamentalism is bad, then it goes and creates nationalist fundamentalist enclaves inside their nations - whilst selectively preaching cosmopolitanism and cultural exchange to the rest. You see why armed bandit groups seek to exterminate you? It's not difficult to stop religious leaders from telling their faithful to kill infidels, topple the government, stone adulterers and behead those who leave Islam. Smh tbh fam stop killing your countries, you're taking us all down with you

In regards to Britain, they don't do that, they were even worse. They spent a century going around the world teaching a fifth of it to be copies of Britain, then after the world learned to be British, the British told the world "no lol be urself u r bootiful the way u ar". Reminds me of the bloody hilarious/grueling scene in Viceroy's House, when the Indian head chef is told to make Indian cuisine instead of European cuisine, and the Indian head chef is bloody furious because he wasted half his life learning European cuisine only for the Brits to decide "authentic native culture" was superior. Right gits lmao. Then they arrive in Britain and the Brits are all "assimilate or gtfo" and so they do assimilate, only for the Brits to decide "lol whatevs fuck havin laws and borders and shit be urself," only to decide again "oh fuck we want borders again assimilate pls." Some consistency would make either policy much more productive to human happiness

[redwallzyl]

*Starts reading*

Issues with Denmark and immigration

1. Categorization of immigrants and decedents of immigrants
Effectively this issue is a typical one of not recognizing immigrants and children of immigrants as Danish and permanently marking them out as different. This has the effect of alienating them and not allowing them to be accepted and integrate.

2. False perceptions of cultural homogeneity
A general false idea of a historically homogeneous Denmark that did not exist. Denmark had until quite recently a very diverse population and experienced considerable immigration. In a general sense as well the formation of modern Denmark has progressed in such a way that the rejection and loss of foreign influence and possessions creating an internal focus is heavily associated in the minds of people with the social progress they achieved. The homogenization of Danish society historical is associated with urbanization in the 1960s.

3. Perceptions of immigrants beliefs being a threat to the welfare state and Danish values
Cultural homogony in Denmarks case is heavily linked to specific ideas and not social conformity. These core ideas are broadly, individual freedom, personal choice, and social engagement. They feel the immigrants do not share these values and perceive the functioning of their welfare state as being reliant on everyone having these values. As such Denmark feels very strongly that all immigrants must be integrated into its core values. They assume that said immigrants do not share their values and also that alternate values must be corrected to ‘proper’ values. As immigrants are otherwise perceived as a burden and a threat to the welfare state by the Danish.

4. Historic perceptions of immigrants
More recent immigration of so called guest workers shaped the perceptions of how immigrates were ‘supposed’ to act. That is grateful to Denmark but not treated with equal status. Also assumed to be temporary. Later they were cast as unemployed and living in isolated ghettos. The causes of this is the treatment of the immigrants by Denmark was ignored. This then began that assumption of them needing to be properly brought into ‘Danish values’ which they were assumed to lack. So the public has an image of a immigrants as having great differences from the ideal Danish person which later grows into people assuming irreconcilable differences. Focus is therefore all on the immigrants and not Danish society itself as the problem.

5. Xenophobia
Obviously all this has lead to lots of xenophobia and racism and a rather hostile attitude towards immigrants. Even Danish researchers have focused on trying to find the reason for non-integration in issues with the immigrants differences. So they have an entrenched scholarly bias against immigrants to go with the public bias.



So there is the heart of the issue. Looks pretty obvious to me that the issue is with Denmarks whole approach and perception of immigrants being basically exactly the opposite of what it should be.

I too can wall of text. Your in my field now.

And that was just a summery of 18 pages out of over 200.

[scriver]

Uh, cultural indoctrination Denmark? Makes me think of some of the worst practices that Westerners had with indengenous peoples. There may also be undertones of Nazi in there, but in general, it just has the undertones of how Europeans have treated places that they've colonized and also places with a persecuted minority.

Do you understand that what made that bad is that European colonists went to other places (or persecuted nations native to within their own borders) and then said "your nation isn't good, you have to be English/Spanish/French/Russian now", by force of arms, regardless of what the people of those nations wanted?l

Do you see how that was completely different situation from Denmark wanting to make sure that people who has chosen to immigrate to their country, completely voluntary, actually integrate into their nation?