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[Kagus]

...

Okay, yeah, I could make that joke a lot worse than it is, but I don't need to. I don't.

[Loud Whispers]

As much as I know I shouldn’t, I desperately hope that we drop off the edge of Europe with no negotiations after Bogo eats Merkels kids or something, then Scotland ejects, tries to rejoin, and gets Mufasad by Spain, who are then distracted by a basque/Catalan independence uprising again. Greece defaults on whatever money it’s got again,, Russia takes advantage of Germany spending all its money on propping up the southern states to start taking more chunks out of Ukraine. Donald Trump declares war on the EU in order to force them to raise viagra prices, causing the stock markets to implode. China tries to implode when everyone stops buying their shit cause they’ve got no money, but survives because tolitarian police state, Poland annexes Germany and gets away with it by claiming the Germans  are nazis if they resist, and a United Ireland sails away into the Atlantic in a raft of potatoes while the world burns.

I find it odd that China doesn't implode because it's a totalitarian police state. Throughout history, it has been the dominant political apparatus which seized control and divided China between ascendant warlords. Also Poland would just say Germans don't exist therefore they can't be annexed, thus silencing the non-existent Germans. Furthermore, Ireland would sail away on a raft of bananas, not potatoes. Ireland is Europe's greatest exporter of bananas, whilst a potato raft would not fare the Atlantic for as long as a banana raft. Bananas have superior buoyancy properties, I know so from testing them on many Cathedral fountains. Greece is more likely to be devoured by Sultan Erdoman the Magnificent's resurgence in the Eastern Meditteranean than it is to default, her debt collectors are not yet done stripping her bare of assets. The implosion of the stock market would not stop much of America's oligarchy from making even more money, having foreknowledge of the imminent collapse of stock prices from their friendly chitchats with White House assets, and with their investments in real assets will emerge as the Eternal Clans of American influence, warring amongst one another in byzantine struggles unseen and unfathomable to the witless peons toiling at their feet - all to ensure, the viagra will flow. Russia expands across the Neo-Boreal Forest of the North, seeking to acquire enough gas to burn in order to stave off the nuclear winter to follow, after Eurovision sparks WWIII by making Palestine the winner of 2019, kicking off a chain reaction of alliances and vote swapping culminating in nuclear war. The coming nuclear war will prove popular amongst younger generations, who finally have realistic hopes of getting on the property ladder and founding a mutant family once the ash settles. "I really hope either my Boss or I die. If he dies I get his job, if I die it's a win win." Another will merely reply "The weak should fear the strong," whilst carving the femur of his co-intern, Dennis, into a spear, on behalf of Chief Jeremiah Henrich of the Marketing and Strategic Development tribe, in preparation for their campaign against Chief Barai Golibrodi of the Human Resources tribe.

[Teneb]

As much as I know I shouldn’t, I desperately hope that we drop off the edge of Europe with no negotiations after Bogo eats Merkels kids or something, then Scotland ejects, tries to rejoin, and gets Mufasad by Spain, who are then distracted by a basque/Catalan independence uprising again. Greece defaults on whatever money it’s got again,, Russia takes advantage of Germany spending all its money on propping up the southern states to start taking more chunks out of Ukraine. Donald Trump declares war on the EU in order to force them to raise viagra prices, causing the stock markets to implode. China tries to implode when everyone stops buying their shit cause they’ve got no money, but survives because tolitarian police state, Poland annexes Germany and gets away with it by claiming the Germans  are nazis if they resist, and a United Ireland sails away into the Atlantic in a raft of potatoes while the world burns.

I find it odd that China doesn't implode because it's a totalitarian police state. Throughout history, it has been the dominant political apparatus which seized control and divided China between ascendant warlords. Also Poland would just say Germans don't exist therefore they can't be annexed, thus silencing the non-existent Germans. Furthermore, Ireland would sail away on a raft of bananas, not potatoes. Ireland is Europe's greatest exporter of bananas, whilst a potato raft would not fare the Atlantic for as long as a banana raft. Bananas have superior buoyancy properties, I know so from testing them on many Cathedral fountains. Greece is more likely to be devoured by Sultan Erdoman the Magnificent's resurgence in the Eastern Meditteranean than it is to default, her debt collectors are not yet done stripping her bare of assets. The implosion of the stock market would not stop much of America's oligarchy from making even more money, having foreknowledge of the imminent collapse of stock prices from their friendly chitchats with White House assets, and with their investments in real assets will emerge as the Eternal Clans of American influence, warring amongst one another in byzantine struggles unseen and unfathomable to the witless peons toiling at their feet - all to ensure, the viagra will flow. Russia expands across the Neo-Boreal Forest of the North, seeking to acquire enough gas to burn in order to stave off the nuclear winter to follow, after Eurovision sparks WWIII by making Palestine the winner of 2019, kicking off a chain reaction of alliances and vote swapping culminating in nuclear war. The coming nuclear war will prove popular amongst younger generations, who finally have realistic hopes of getting on the property ladder and founding a mutant family once the ash settles. "I really hope either my Boss or I die. If he dies I get his job, if I die it's a win win." Another will merely reply "The weak should fear the strong," whilst carving the femur of his co-intern, Dennis, into a spear, on behalf of Chief Jeremiah Henrich of the Marketing and Strategic Development tribe, in preparation for their campaign against Chief Barai Golibrodi of the Human Resources tribe.

Meanwhile, Portugal and Brazil arm themselves for yet another meme war, ignoring the collapsing world around them. (The source is from 2016, but there's been more since then. This year saw one that lasted for a few hours, for instance. Good luck finding one that is in english though)

[Kagus]

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/21/sweden-distributes-be-prepared-for-war-cyber-terror-attack-leaflet-to-every-home

I think this is actually kind of neat. I mean, I'm not huge on military spending as a general rule, but having a pamphlet showcasing how the everyman can help themselves in a crisis situation (and thus help the country as a whole, by not being quite as squishy) is an interesting idea for overall "defense".

Heck, I still basically think that national guard units and militaries in general could use a bit more training in crisis handling, and basically just use them to help provide a kind of reactive infrastructure for natural disasters and whatnot, with the whole shooty bang bang being kind of secondary.

My experiences at least, with the never-near-combat Norwegian national defense, was primarily just a lot of training and practice on tactics and equipment that we would never use even if we WERE in an active combat situation.

Meanwhile, we handily neglected all the things that routinely DID come up, such as "our tin can of a support vehicle fell through the ice" and "snow falling from a roof just annihilated one of the $500,000 office containers".

Not to mention how fucking slow we were at deploying or redeploying anything, anywhere, because our logistics routines were absolutely abysmal.

But no, no... we needed to learn how to use grenades that our division would never have, how to maintain guns that are incredibly unsuited for our home terrain, and how to set up communications equipment that was phased out of use in the 60's because it served no purpose compared to the alternatives (which we also used).

We also had to learn how to pretend to shoot our guns, because due to a (*GASP!*) logistics issue, our entire battalion was left without ammunition for most of our service period.


...Okay, I'm ranting. Pamphlet is cool, promoting individual self-reliability is cool, ending statement is hilariously badass.

[Loud Whispers]

It advises checking the source of all information, warning that “states and organisations are already trying to influence our values and how we act ... and reduce reduce our resilience and willingness to defend ourselves”.
A detailed page of “home preparedness tips” advises the population to stock up on water bottles, warm clothing and sleeping bags, and “non-perishable food that can be prepared quickly, requires little water or can be eaten without preparation”.
In the event of armed conflict, it says, “everyone is obliged to contribute and everyone is needed” for Sweden’s “total defence”: anyone between 16 and 70 “can be called to assist in the event of the threat of war and war”.
Sweden has not been at war with another country for more than 200 years. If it is attacked, the leaflet says, “we will never give up. All information to the effect that resistance is to cease is false.”

Worthless propaganda intended to engender a siege mentality against invisible foes in order to bolster the popularity of unpopular regimes. Not an adequate substitute for training, national unity nor experience, and not at all a surprise coming from Sweden - throwing your people into the meatgrinder is definitely no substitute for a military, but if Sweden's absolute failure to recruit and retain volunteers shows, even forming a Territorial Army would appear to be beyond its current national abilities. At least Sweden will be defended to the last Finn, assuming of course, it is not a civil war which puts the metaphorical mangy dog down. Grenade attacks on Swedish ambulances aren't exactly being done by Russian hackers
That said, founding your own large body of reservists is a bretty good idea. The UK has its own reserve force which, while decaying with the rest of these isles, remains useful. Every time a particularly nasty natural catastrophe hits the reservists can be mobilized as a pre-existing command and logistical framework with which to effectively form a humanitarian response. And in the event of an invasion, would be a valuable addition to regular defence forces - thus despite rarely being sent to combat zones, remain a useful expenditure of defence funds.
Regarding the topic of drilling useless tactics or equipment, the logic goes that in war, nothing goes to plan and useless tactics may not necessarily always remain so - the continued training in bayonet charges for example, proves to yield surprising results. Moreover, training which has no functional use in combat - for example, in marching drill, nevertheless serves the purpose in forming unit cohesion, discipline and unity, putting everyone through a shared experience of suffering under the managerial genius of one's superior officers. Also consider redundancy; the Royal Navy for example continues to train its Officers in such navigational or communication methods as were being rendered obsolete in the 18th-20th century, on the assumption that in the event of all of their modern equipment being rendered inoperable, the ships would all remain war-capable. Thus having lots of people capable of setting up redundant equipment from the 60's is useful in the event that all communication equipment from the 2000s is unavailable for whatever reason. There's method in Norway's madness, either that, or they ran out of money

Sweden is a pretty shit dystopia tbh, anything less than total annihilation by a hostile power would do less damage to Sweden than what Sweden's own elites are determined to pursue

[Kagus]

Right, so, that's a lot of rant and I'm kind of on a time limit, so to begin with I'll just go with the little piece at the bottom that caught my eye.

The "modern alternative" equipment that is still being used in preference to the stuff that's been phased out of active use is from the 50's. It is not modern tech, save for a couple newish encryption modifications. It's just more effective, easier to set up and use, more resilient, and more adaptable than the other ones, which are the more modern equipment.

The reason the other junk still exists at all (note that it is not sent out of the country with our actual active divisions, it exists solely in the care of one branch of the communications battalion who are explicitly and exclusively trained to use and maintain it) is because the paperwork hasn't been processed yet.

They're trying to remove it completely, but the military bureaucracy is so horrifically bloated that they haven't figured out how yet. In the meantime, they keep bringing in new kids, teaching them how to deploy this shit, paying through the nose to replace the ones that inevitably break, and invent things for them to do on exercises so they don't feel left out.

It's not a redundancy, it's a liability. The bureaucracy is just that bad. In 2011, the year I was in (yes, one single year. That's the mandatory service period, which is really only mandatory if you want to do it), they were getting ready to start a huge process of updating all military computers to the new OS which had only just then finished the rigorous testing required before something like that can be put into active users.

That OS? Windows XP. The testing process took nearly ten years before they could decide whether or not to implement it.


The military organizational structure here is a fucking sham.

[ChairmanPoo]

The military is a sham everywhere.
Now, there is no constription back home anywhere, but I'll share one of the tales my father told me (I'll share more even, if its received properly)

So... the soldier doing guard duty in ome of the buildings was, among other things, supposed to inventory the weapons in a meeting room. No big deal, some old rifles... and a saber.  See, everyone included the sabre in the inventory because noone had ever bothered in writing it out, and in fact nobody in living memory had actually ever seen the saber. But all inventory checklists acknowledged the saber was there. For years.
One day, one noob did the inventory and foolishly reported the saber as missing. Guess who ended up in front of a court martial to give explanations about the saber's disappaerance

[Loud Whispers]

It's not a redundancy, it's a liability. The bureaucracy is just that bad.

To rephrase: It's accommodated incompetence, as soldiers will understand how to use the old equipment because the new equipment never arrives unless it's "requisitioned" :]

In 2011, the year I was in (yes, one single year. That's the mandatory service period, which is really only mandatory if you want to do it), they were getting ready to start a huge process of updating all military computers to the new OS which had only just then finished the rigorous testing required before something like that can be put into active users.

That OS? Windows XP. The testing process took nearly ten years before they could decide whether or not to implement it.

The military organizational structure here is a fucking sham.

Reminds me of when I met a soldier who used to be stationed in West Germany, when their bureaucracy made the transition from paper to computer and somehow everything got even worse

[Kagus]

Well, again, the old equipment is what we're using today. Because it's useful. We're still using those big fuckoff field radios from the 50's, because they're hardy as fuck and they're reliable at getting a signal where it needs to be.

The new equipment, which are these point-to-point field telephone rigs, apparently has a much clearer signal quality... However, it's reliant on having a clear, unobstructed line of sight to the point it's trying to contact, it's much larger than a radio, and they're fragile as a neighbor's flowervase (as well as costing thousands to repair/replace). And, since they're directional, they need to receive a radio transmission to tell them to change facing anyways...

That's what got phased out in the 60's, because there just wasn't any reason to have it. Sure, if you get the connection steady, it's apparently a great, clear, secure method of communication. ...but Norway is filled with bulk forests and discount mountains, good luck trying to get LOS on your target. So rather than using them alongside the radios they were already using, they just went back to using the radios exclusively. But the process of actually removing the directional teletransmitters has apparently gotten so deeply bungholed by the powers that be that a clean break is apparently out of the question.

As for having a few people around who are trained in the use of these things just in case they decide to use some, that's also kinda moot because the singular platoon that gets trained with these things is never sent out of the country, the law prevents it. So, yeah. Almost as effective as when they made new combat gloves standard issue for all the national defense, most of whom are stationed in the northern reaches of Norway where it easily hits -41 degrees (and below!) effective at times during the winter.

The gloves were made for desert combat, and were purchased for our deployed troops in the middle east... They're specifically designed to diffuse heat away from the hand, and make it possible to touch very hot metal things like grenades that have been out in the sun.

It got so bad that, during our boot period (lasting a whole 8 weeks, because they needed to get more boots on the ground for a big exercise, so they didn't have time to actually train us fully), we went from having the gloves be mandatory parts of the uniform to being specifically disallowed from wearing them if the temperature was below freezing.


Oh, yeah, I ended up reading a military news magazine while waiting for a doctor's appointment while I was in... In there they talked about how the Navy had just bought 3 big new battleships from the US.  ...and then, I think 2-3 months later, found out that the "maintenance costs were beyond projected budget constraints", and sold 2 of them. For about 25% of what they'd paid to buy them in the first place. Whoever wrote up that expenditure analysis must have been high on some god damn Destroyer-class mushrooms.

So... the soldier doing guard duty in ome of the buildings was, among other things, supposed to inventory the weapons in a meeting room. No big deal, some old rifles... and a saber.  See, everyone included the sabre in the inventory because noone had ever bothered in writing it out, and in fact nobody in living memory had actually ever seen the saber. But all inventory checklists acknowledged the saber was there. For years.
One day, one noob did the inventory and foolishly reported the saber as missing. Guess who ended up in front of a court martial to give explanations about the saber's disappearance

Oh man, that... That hits entirely too close to home. We didn't have any sabers, but that whole kind of thinking is just so fundamentally a part of military life that it's ridiculous.

During my time, they revised the standard equipment checklist for infantrymen in my division, changing around how many pairs of this type of underwear, what kinds of auxiliary equipment and consumables you'd be given etc... The problem, of course, is that we'd received the old list when we first took everything out at the start of our service. But when we were discharged, and were supposed to return all military equipment, most people got stopped and questioned as to why they hadn't returned everything on the list. Well... Because we were being asked to return 3 pairs of long johns, out of the 2 we'd been given.

The only people who filled the checklist acceptably were people who'd stolen from other soldiers and thus had more than what they were assigned.

[martinuzz]

After 4 years of investigation and verification, the Joint Investigation Team investigating the downing of flight MH-17 concluded that the BUK missile used to shoot down the aircraft originated from the Russian army, to be precise, the 53th anti-aircraft brigade of the Russian army in Kursk.
Prime minister Rutte has cut off his trade meeting in India to return to the Netherlands. All ministers abroad are recalled for emergency meeting. The parliament is also holding an extra session. It is expected that the Netherlands will call for a UN Security Council meeting to discuss what to do next.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/onderzoeksteam-raket-die-mh17-neerhaalde-was-van-russisch-leger~bce2e060/

https://youtu.be/rhyd875Qtlg


In other news, Iran has threatened to resume it's uranium enrichment if the EU does not protect them against US sanctions.

[smjjames]

It took them four years to identify the obvious? Pfft. Though I guess there’s the benefit of having an investigation and identifying the specific unit that did it.

[Kagus]

It took them four years to identify the obvious? Pfft. Though I guess there’s the benefit of having an investigation and identifying the specific unit that did it.

One thing is having an "obvious" answer, another thing is specifically confirming it.

[SaberToothTiger]

Actually investigating crimes? Why bother lol just sosnogorsk the most convenient scapegoat.

Note: Yes, it was obvious that Russia did it, however just going off on a hunch would quite simply be a rather dickish thing to do. False flags do exist and behaving like a red+white+blue-blooded american is not quite the responsible thing to do.

[Reelya]

It's very unlikely that the Buk was fired by actual Russian troops. Sure, it was equipment provided by the Russians, but that's been pretty obvious for a while.

So, the weapons were Russian, we got that, but there's no real justification to start speculating about conspiracy-theory level ideas such as this being a false-flag operation by the Russians or something. It was just a dumb fuck-up because they gave powerful weapons to idiots.

e.g. we know some launcher systems left the base of the 53rd Brigade in Kursk, and were added to an existing convoy of weapons that was headed towards the border. But, there isn't a shred of evidence that anyone from the 53rd Brigade actually mobilized, and also the specific launcher was identified in photos because it's missing spokes on one wheel. e.g. they sent them the shittiest launchers they had available. That evidence is much more in line with the theory that the Russians scrounged old gear from a number of units then sent it to the Ukrainian rebels.

From the sounds of it, they just thought to send them a little bit of everything, and there was no specific thought given to the AA launchers whatsoever. e.g. having an airliner get shot down by AA weapons is an exceedingly rare event, to the point that if you're giving someone AA weapons to fight a civil war, it's not the kind of thing you'd immediately think about.

Handing out heavy weapons to people who don't know how to use them, thus fucked up shit happens, that's not just a Russian issue. I saw a thing on TV last night about how Saudi Arabia are shelling areas in Yemen with US-supplied gear, but they don't really know how to use the weapons properly, so they cause a lot more civilian casualties than they should. e.g. firing heavy weapons is the easy part, the hard part is having the correct recon information so that you're not targeting things you're not actually trying to hit.

[Kagus]

It's very unlikely that the Buk was fired by actual Russian troops. Sure, it was equipment provided by the Russians, but that's been pretty obvious for a while.

So, the weapons were Russian, we got that, but there's no real justification to start speculating about conspiracy-theory level ideas such as this being a false-flag operation by the Russians or something. It was just a dumb fuck-up because they gave powerful weapons to idiots.

e.g. we know some launcher systems left the base of the 53rd Brigade in Kursk, and were added to an existing convoy of weapons that was headed towards the border. But, there isn't a shred of evidence that anyone from the 53rd Brigade actually mobilized, and also the specific launcher was identified in photos because it's missing spokes on one wheel. e.g. they sent them the shittiest launchers they had available. That evidence is much more in line with the theory that the Russians scrounged old gear from a number of units then sent it to the Ukrainian rebels.

From the sounds of it, they just thought to send them a little bit of everything, and there was no specific thought given to the AA launchers whatsoever. e.g. having an airliner get shot down by AA weapons is an exceedingly rare event, to the point that if you're giving someone AA weapons to fight a civil war, it's not the kind of thing you'd immediately think about.

Handing out heavy weapons to people who don't know how to use them, thus fucked up shit happens, that's not just a Russian issue. I saw a thing on TV last night about how Saudi Arabia are shelling areas in Yemen with US-supplied gear, but they don't really know how to use the weapons properly, so they cause a lot more civilian casualties than they should. e.g. firing heavy weapons is the easy part, the hard part is having the correct recon information so that you're not targeting things you're not actually trying to hit.

Well, that doesn't necessarily make them much worse than the American troops using American weapons...


Also, just cementing that the launcher was indeed from Russia is a big deal, because Russia has been vehemently denying any such allegations. Again, "obvious" versus "confirmed".