Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 533 534 [535] 536 537 ... 795

Author Topic: The friendly and polite Europe related terrible jokes thread  (Read 1106948 times)

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8010 on: May 02, 2018, 04:19:08 am »

I'm aghast someone here would defend that bull. You actually think it's ok to mandate slave wages to immigrants, just because they are immigrants? It's utter crap, and harmful for both native workers AND foreigners. Sweet jebus, you think the latter will be happy on stsrvstion wage?

Well, I'm kinda split, I can see it working depending on implementation. 1) It should only apply to refugees and maybe a few other classes to avoid mass influx of guest worker abusing the provision. 2) It should be time-limited from the time the guy get the right to work. The idea is to make it easier to step into the marketplace like for young people, not create a permanent exemption to social laws. 3) It shouldn't be a mandate for low pay, and it shouldn't be starvation wage either. If a refugee can get a good-paying job, all the power to him. The goal is to make it easier to get a first job for people who otherwise couldn't get one, because they lack the experience, skills and language.

It's targeted at people who don't have a job. They're not going to be happy on unemployment benefits either.

Basically, think of it the same way as the lower minimum wage for young people*. It'd be a temporary exception for people entering the marketplace, except those people aren't entering it at 18 but at the time of the granting of their refugees status.


*Apparently Sweden does it already for young people at least in some sectors (minimum wage varies by sectors). For exemple, apparently in restaurant minimum wage is 84.5 SEK/hour at 17, 88.6 SEK/hour at 18 and it raise to 116.9 SEK/hour at 20, with more for people with a given level of experience. Do you think that system is "mandating slave wage"? Do you think that this statement:

Quote
I'm aghast someone here would defend that bull. You actually think it's ok to mandate slave wages to young people, just because they are young? It's utter crap, and harmful for both older people AND the youngs. Sweet jebus, you think the latter will be happy on stsrvstion wage?

is a fair description of this system? If not, what's the difference between this and what I was talking about?
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8011 on: May 02, 2018, 04:34:46 am »

I'm having trouble resorting to any kind of response that's not just a "lol no". I'm honestly dumb struck at how you, a grown person, could be that naive.

This is literally undermining the competitiveness of Swedish workers and actively causing salary standards to decrease, but that aside, this is also a direct attack at unions and what remains of the Swedish Model. Perhaps it should be noted that Sweden does not have a legal minimum wage but instead relies on the strength of the unions to define their own minimum wage. A system where immigrants can by legal authority be given salaries "below minimum wage" means that to be able to compete with them as potential employees established citizens must be outside the union system.

This is nothing else than a page out of the "workers should be cattle to herd" neoliberal thought line. First they say "we should let all of the people into our system - don't worry, it won't lower the standards for anybody!", then they let too many new people into the system for it to work properly and then they say "we have to lower the standards - but don't worry, it'll only be for the new people", and then before you know it you end up with a lowered standard for everybody except the 1% because of course you do. This is "if you don't like the system, break it, then say the system has failed" politics in action.
Logged
Love, scriver~

martinuzz

  • Bay Watcher
  • High dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8012 on: May 02, 2018, 05:02:13 am »

Oops wrong thread moved to Ameripol
Logged
Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8013 on: May 02, 2018, 05:19:23 am »



Meh, I don't know the details of the actual proposal, including enough who exactly is pushing it (Because your argument is mostly one of the slippery slope kind rather than an attack on the proposal itself. Which doesn't make your objection not valid, but I'm just pointing that out so we avoid talking past each others). I just wanted to say that there can be a good rationale beyond just hating workers for that kind of proposal.

Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

martinuzz

  • Bay Watcher
  • High dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8014 on: May 02, 2018, 05:29:00 am »

I'm aghast someone here would defend that bull. You actually think it's ok to mandate slave wages to immigrants, just because they are immigrants? It's utter crap, and harmful for both native workers AND foreigners. Sweet jebus, you think the latter will be happy on stsrvstion wage?
^^

Yeah, Sheb, I am aghast as well. That line of thought a complete disregard and middle finger to worker rights and Unions (and a neo-liberal's wet dream).
The immigrants aren't to blame though. Neo-liberal governments and laws are. Note that it's not just refugees working below minimum wage, it's EU citizens from less economically well-off EU nations as well. This directly undermines the principle of solidarity that is needed to make the EU survive.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 05:32:42 am by martinuzz »
Logged
Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Kagus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Olive oil. Don't you?
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8015 on: May 02, 2018, 05:36:09 am »

We still need to agree on a minimum wage for dead people, so that guy can get a job again. A long-neglected topic.

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8016 on: May 02, 2018, 05:44:13 am »

Note that it's not just refugees working below minimum wage, it's EU citizens from less economically well-off EU nations as well. This directly undermines the principle of solidarity that is needed to make the EU survive.

Is that the Swedish proposal you're referring to here? Or the posted worker thing, which is a whole other can of worms?

Okay, let me try to defend myself in another way. Here in Belgium we got a thing where if an employer hire someone who has been unemployed for a long time, the state pays part of that guy's salary for a given period of time. Personnaly I think it's an idea with merit: skill rust is an issue, so it's usually better for an employer to hire someone who hasn't been unemployed for a long time. This can lead to situations where people can't find a job because they haven't had a job in a long time, meaning they stay unemployed, meaning they're out of a job for even longer, meaning they're even less likely to get a job. The subsidy in this case is a way to break the spiral.

Now, do you guys think that's a bad idea?

Because it is, basically, the same thing as the thing I was proposing for refugees. Admittedly with two big differences (the state rather than the refugee is footing the bill for the lower wage cost to the employer, and it sounds less like a slippery slope), but it still force established worker to compete with the long-term unemployed who get a subsidy.

P.S. Should be noted that again, I don't exactly know the content of that proposal by right-wing Swedes scriver was referring to, so I'm debating the general idea rather than the specific of the Swedish case. I would appreciate an english link if you have one Scriver, it'd be interesting and it might avoid us talking past each others on some points.
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8017 on: May 02, 2018, 06:20:49 am »

This can make some sense if done well. It's hard for new immigrants to compete with native Swedes when they just arrived if they have to be paid the same level.
Only if you follow the European immigration model of having literally no border control or immigration standards whatsoever. This problem entirely dissipates when you select for immigrants of equal education or experience.

Now, for some migrants you could say though luck to them, but for those that you can't/don't want to deport if they can't sustain themselves (refugees mostly), you can end up trapping them out of employment, with all kind of negative consequences, both for the state's finance, for the integration of the refugees and so on.
That's immigration. Pretty obvious when you say refugee as synonymous with unlimited immigration. Someone who is moving from a safe country to a safe country, who is never going back to their home country, who is there just to supply cheap labour to neoliberal employers in perpetuity, yeah that's immigration m8.
 
This explain part of the reasons why employment rate for refugees is much higher in place like the US and Germany than Sweden or the Netherlands.

Letting them compete on wage for a few years while can give them the leg up they need to enter the job market, and get the experience they need to get jobs normally. I dunno about Sweden, but lots of countries do it for young people for that same reasons. In the UK minimum wage is 5.9 £/hour when you're 18, but raise top 7.83 £/hour when 25 or older. Belgium got a system where the minimum wage depends both on your age and your amount of work experience, although the variations are small, going from 1530 euros/month to 1590 for people over 20 with at least 12 month of experience. 
Quote
Up to three quarters of Germany’s refugees will still be unemployed in five years’ time, according to a government minister, in a stark admission of the challenges the country faces in integrating its huge migrant population.

Aydan Özoğuz, commissioner for immigration, refugees and integration, told the Financial Times that only a quarter to a third of the newcomers would enter the labour market over the next five years, and “for many others we will need up to 10”.
Questionable logic if you view Germany as anything but failing all.

Obviously, there is also downsides to the idea, and scope for bad implementation causing more harm to the native workers, but the idea isn't entirely stupid and/or evil either.
Whom does such policy serve? You increase migration to the point where you replace your citizenry when your citizens tell you they want less, you decrease your tax base bringing aboard more people who take more and contribute less, you lower your wages to create an immigrant underclass who works for pennies - and you expect immigrants to be content living in indignity and serfdom? The neoliberal cry, that immigrants do the jobs no one wants to do, it is nothing but stupid and evil to seek not to make unwanted tasks obsolete, but merely pass it down to the unwanted and downtrodden. No human being would accept that as their standing in society, is it any wonder then that they see no issue with killing and raping Germans? What the hell do you expect when you bring people from safe countries on the dream of sex and economic prospects, and then tell them their only purpose was to pick litter of streets to earn a worthless wage - which coupled with the higher costs of living in Germany, means they won't even be able to afford going home? And the whole response to its evident failure is simply to stop collecting evidence and increase migration? Haha wot, you won't find me often agreeing with Marx, but when he said capitalism took people from around the world and turned them into one indistinct proletariat he was not wrong.

It's exactly the kind of retarded, immoral short term thinking neoliberalism comes up with.

If you bring in immigrants to live in your country forever, you cannot leave them as disenfranchised residents forever. You must strive to make them citizens of your country, equals of your country, or there is simply no way for your state to survive - even assuming, that your nation will have more years yet. I'm pessimistic because it's pretty easy not to make the classic mistake of doing nothing right, but it seems everyone loves making that mistake these days. Once they're citizens of your country and they have equal treatment in the eyes of law (I honestly can't fucking believe how anyone can imagine it's ok to use these people as citizens without any of the rights of citizenry), you then have to move onto every other detail which without, would keep citizens descended from migrants permanently fucked. Things like good education for their children, access to cheap credit so they can become homeowners and business owners - and like I said before, if you don't pay a wage worth living, you have no idea what damage you cause. Ignore what Scriver said about lowering wages to benefit a few large businesses - it's a valid point, but not the one I want to focus on. When you tell people from all across the world that they can make more money in one day's cheap labour than they'd make in a month in their home country in a sexually liberated Western nation, is there any surprise that so many young men sell all they have to make their way to countries like Germany? Hell no.
But time and time again the same story repeats itself. Hopeful young men arrive, the white liberals who said they'd help them keep them out with gates, bars and red tape, they live in a community that is entirely men and although they get paid more than what they did at home, it is not enough to keep up with the costs of living - which are far more than at home, with the result being they came to another country to grow rich and are now in debt. And as I said before, no Western banks are giving illegal migrants good interest rates. The result is that not just human trafficking in small criminal enterprises takes place, but companies with annual turnovers of tens of millions of dollars are benefiting from slavery on European soil.

It's fucking evil, it's fucking stupid, and when Europe is in civil war we will look to these days as the days where we looked at all the riots, violent crime and terrorism and said "everything is fine, just lower their wages so they can get that job experience."
Job experience.
For jobs.
In the same civilization that says automation will render hundreds millions of low-skilled jobs obsolete.
Also saying it needs hundreds of millions more low-skilled workers.

Making the classic mistake of literally doing nothing right: NOT EVEN ONCE


NOT

EVEN

ONCE

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8018 on: May 02, 2018, 12:48:02 pm »

I hate when you do this LW, because I feel like I can't send back a one-line throwaway, but then I don't have the time or energy tonight to answer properly, and then it's just going to drip by and I'll never get around to it.

So this isn't a full answer, but just a few points.

I cited Germany and the US as better than Sweden and other European countries at putting refugees to work, I never said they had found a magic bullet. I don't have access to the FT article but actual research shows big difference between countries regarding labor participation rate. In Germany, after 15 years, labor-force participation almost reach the level of the overal population (70 v. 74%), compared to a low of 45% in Denmark. In America, within 6 years the employment rate for refugees actually exceed the one for the overall population. But then of course in the US it's work or starve, which is effective at getting people to work, but not really a policy I'd like to see anywhere.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Secondly, you seem to think I have some kind of fetish for encouraging Morrocans to drown in the Med or something. I don't. I think we have an obligation to take in some refugees, but I'd rather see a closure of the borders coupled with a deal where we welcome the ones that needs it the most rather than the one that can afford to pay a coyote.

My entire argument was resting within the framework that there is a number of long-term immigrants that we don't want to deport even if they can't find a job. Obvisouly, if you don't share that assumption, my entire argument falls apart, as you can just deport them all rather than having to integrate them into our societies. (But then in that case, you can't really use the arguments that martinuzz or ChairmanPoo used regarding the fact that this proposal would be exploiting them).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 01:22:08 pm by Sheb »
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

scriver

  • Bay Watcher
  • City streets ain't got much pity
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8019 on: May 02, 2018, 01:19:21 pm »

I looked at the post code to see if there was something in the spoiler that didn't show properly and holy shit that link adress
Logged
Love, scriver~

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8020 on: May 02, 2018, 01:20:40 pm »

I looked at the post code to see if there was something in the spoiler that didn't show properly and holy shit that link adress

Gosh, I posted, it fucked, so I clicked "copy image address". It looked huge but worked on my computer... I'll re-upload it to imgur, but it's basically the graph from the linked study.
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

MetalSlimeHunt

  • Bay Watcher
  • Gerrymander Commander
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8021 on: May 02, 2018, 04:28:00 pm »

It's not work or starve in the US. We have a shitty safety net, not a nonexistent one. When it comes to food specifically it's actually halfway decent, if only because it turns out that "take their children's food away" is a bridge too far even for our Rational Economic Conservative/Social Liberal Overlords.

And the proposed neoliberal wageslave policy isn't in effect here, so I'm not sure why you're even citing the US for your argument. In fact, it's probably harder to illegally undercut refugees here since they're virtually all documented, what with the huge fucking ocean in the way of most refugee home nations.

It has been proven time and time again the best way to get labor force participation is to not treat people like disposable replaceable garbage, but time and time again we've got some Thinking Of The Potential Rational Market Analysts to say "ok, but what if, WHAT IF we take wages and benefits and then classify it as waste spending because the workers are a captive audience".
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 04:29:55 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
Logged
Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

martinuzz

  • Bay Watcher
  • High dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8022 on: May 06, 2018, 02:30:23 pm »

A man attacked 3 people with a knife in The Hague yesterday. All three are in hospital with serious injuries.
Eyewitness video shows how the perpetrator was shot at multiple times by the police, and hit in the leg, and when he refused to drop his knife when downed, they tazed him, disarmed him, and took him to hospital, and arrested him. The video also shows him shouting Allahu akhbar, after he is downed by the police.
According to the mayor of the Hague, the man is known to the police as a 'confused individual', but that there are no signals that there is any link to terrorist organisations.

According to the national news service NOS, the man is a 31-year old Syrian refugee who is not on the list of possible terrorism suspects for intelligence agencies.
https://beta.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/politie-doet-onderzoek-naar-verwarde-man-die-drie-voorbijgangers-neerstak~b6417e52/
Logged
Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

Kagus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Olive oil. Don't you?
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8023 on: May 06, 2018, 02:36:23 pm »

IS will most likely claim credit for it anyways. Hell, they'd claim responsibility for Hawai'i's eruption if they thought they could get away with it.

Also, wow. Not only a violent, armed individual, but shots were actually fired... And the guy lived! Creds to the Dutchcops.

martinuzz

  • Bay Watcher
  • High dwarf
    • View Profile
Re: The friendly and polite EU-related terrible jokes thread
« Reply #8024 on: May 06, 2018, 02:48:14 pm »

Dutchcops should train UScops in de-escalation (and situational awareness. Dutch cops don't mistake mobile phones for guns).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 02:52:28 pm by martinuzz »
Logged
Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479
Pages: 1 ... 533 534 [535] 536 537 ... 795