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[ChairmanPoo]

465 wounded

[martinuzz]

In Marseilles, two young women (17 and 20) were killed by a man shouting Alahu Akhbar, while he sliced open one woman's abdomen, and slit another woman's throat. The man was shot and killed by the police shortly after. St. Charles station has been evacuated and the police asks people to avoid the area.

Meanwhile in Canada, a man ran over a traffic cop with a van, and proceeded to stab him repeatedly with a knife.
When Canadian police spotted the van used in the attack, it ran over 4 pedestrians in the following chase. Two hours later, the 30 year old driver was arrested. An IS flag was found in the van.
The traffic cop is in hospital, but out of life danger. The fate of the hit pedestrians is as of yet unknown.

[da_nang]

Guy Verhofstadt's two cents:

I don’t want to interfere in the domestic issues of Spain but I absolutely condemn what happened today in Catalonia.

On one hand, the separatist parties went forward with a so-called referendum that was forbidden by the Constitutional Court, knowing all too well that only a minority would participate as 60 % of the Catalans are against separation.

And on the other hand - even when based on court decisions - the use of disproportionate violence to stop this.

In the European Union we try to find solutions through political dialogue and with respect for the constitutional order as enshrined in the Treaties, especially in art. 4.

It’s high time for de-escalation. Only a negotiated solution in which all political parties, including the opposition in the Catalan Parliament, are involved and with respect for the Constitutional and legal order of the country, is the way forward.

(Emphasis mine)

[redwallzyl]

There was no situation where Spain would ever have let them do this. It would have been effectively committing suicide to do so. No state can ever let a part of it illegaly seceed. No other country would either as it would directly threaten there stability.

[martinuzz]

Catalonians wounded increased to 761. At some places Catalonian police is now trying to protect protestors from the national police.

[Reelya]

Recent polls had that 41% of Catalonians supported independence. I'm kind of wondering whether the brutality could increase that over 50%. They could be digging their own grave. If independence was so unpopular as the Spanish prime minister was suggesting then it might have been safer to let the thing fizzle by itself.

[SaberToothTiger]

Western style of democracy:
Plebs vote like you want them to - The people have spoken.
Plebs vote like you don't want them to - The people are mistaken, let them try again
Plebs disagree - Send in the tanks, kill the turrists
Plebs agree - Clearly, the people support our wise and just policy

i r8 dis b8 9/11, gr8 f8 no h8

[Teneb]

Recent polls had that 41% of Catalonians supported independence. I'm kind of wondering whether the brutality could increase that over 50%. They could be digging their own grave. If independence was so unpopular as the Spanish prime minister was suggesting then it might have been safer to let the thing fizzle by itself.

I have no doubts that support for independence has gone up, given the brutality shown by the castillian government.

At some places Catalonian police is now trying to protect protestors from the national police.

And considering this is happening, it's pretty obvious the situation will continue to escalate.

[ChairmanPoo]

Recent polls had that 41% of Catalonians supported independence. I'm kind of wondering whether the brutality could increase that over 50%. They could be digging their own grave. If independence was so unpopular as the Spanish prime minister was suggesting then it might have been safer to let the thing fizzle by itself.

It actually was so. Catalonian nationalist parties had less total votes than non-nationalist ones. But see, if he did that he wouldn´t look as tough to his right wing voter base. Therefore he escalated the situation instead.

I don’t want to interfere in the domestic issues of Spain but I absolutely condemn what happened today in Catalonia.

On one hand, the separatist parties went forward with a so-called referendum that was forbidden by the Constitutional Court, knowing all too well that only a minority would participate as 60 % of the Catalans are against separation.

And on the other hand - even when based on court decisions - the use of disproportionate violence to stop this.

In the European Union we try to find solutions through political dialogue and with respect for the constitutional order as enshrined in the Treaties, especially in art. 4.

It’s high time for de-escalation. Only a negotiated solution in which all political parties, including the opposition in the Catalan Parliament, are involved and with respect for the Constitutional and legal order of the country, is the way forward

.
...likewise, 80% of the problem is that the PP goverment didn´t want to reach any sort of negotiated solution anytime soon (and for the record, 30 years afterwards the central goverment STILL hasn't fulfilled the deal struck with the Basque goverment. No wonder the Catalonians are skeptical about their own situation).  The Govern felt this was the only way to make the central goverment sit down to negotiate, and they have a strong point, to be honest.

[martinuzz]

Catalonian government has said the Spanish government will have to hold itself accountable in international court. I wonder if they're planning to sue them for crimes against civilian population at the ICC in The Hague.

[Reelya]

Hmm yeah, also the constitutional clause that disallows any sort of referendum on independence is probably not legitimate in terms of international legal principles.

e.g. if you can't even ask to secede legally then your only resort is physical force. Denying any sort of negotiated legal avenue is in fact a dangerous game the Spanish government is playing: asking for independence is not "cheating" on the part of Catalonia. Democratic governments do not "own" people.

[da_nang]

Hmm yeah, also the constitutional clause that disallows any sort of referendum is probably not legitimate in terms of international law. e.g. if you can't even ask to secede legally then your only resort is force. Hence, the way Catalonia is doing it is in fact the most legitimate tactic.

They can ask. They just need to amend the constitution, which is legally possible in their free and democratic country. Whether they have the political support for it is another matter, but the international law says nothing about that.

But regarding secession, customary international law is actually quite clear on this matter. The right to self-determination of people in non-colonial territory does not allow unilateral secession, save for remedial secession a la Kosovo--and Catalonia is not in a similar position for that to apply.

The other alternative is to settle it through war.

[thvaz]

What is happening in Catalonia shows very well the real nature of the state.

[Strife26]

What is happening in Catalonia shows very well the real nature of the state.

Shows very little about the State, other than the national government is responding heavily handed to a illegal secession referendum that lacked local, much less national, public support.

[redwallzyl]

Seeing as letting them do it is quite literally the state equivilent of suicide it's totally unsurprising.