Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

Is there solid evidence that suggests Muslim schools are teaching radicalization?

[martinuzz]

In resisting all government attempts to nationalize them, the Jews build a state within the state

When I say there are parallels I mean there are parallels.

The Truth doesn't trump "The Truth" unfortunately.

Quote from where?
It sounds like the old nazi propaganda. First, European countries put jews fleeing from Russian pogroms in ghettos, and then they start blaming them that they are living in ghettos, and forming a 'state within a state'.

[martinuzz]

Is there solid evidence that suggests Muslim schools are teaching radicalization?

No, and I never said that. They do inherently promote segregation though. Segregation leads to isolation, which is a perfect feeding ground for radicalization.

EDIT: I said no, but there have been one or two cases of muslim schools being warned /  shut down by education inspection for instilling anti-western sentiment.

Now in Belgium that would have been a big thing, it would mean that 200% of all muslim schools are doing that. In the Netherlands, it's luckily just such a very small percentage that it can be labelled 'incidental'.

[hector13]

Frankly, I'm never sure in this case if I'm more horrified of the people who wants to punich a whole ethnic/religious group for the actions of one of their member, or the people who want to punish a group for the actions that one of their unborn member might take in half a century.

And not getting to move to Europe is not a punishment, Sheb. That kind of thinking really reveals how much you look down on the rest of the world.

If not a punishment, what is it?

If you had a choice rescinded because of something one of your countrymen did, someone you have no knowledge of, never met, how would you take it?

Perhaps it reveals more about what Sheb thinks about that logic than what he thinks of the rest of the world.

[Neonivek]

Is there solid evidence that suggests Muslim schools are teaching radicalization?

No, and I never said that.

Sorry about that. I promise you I wasn't even trying to imply, even slightly, that you said that.

Quote from where?
It sounds like the old nazi propaganda

It is Nazi rhetoric used against opposition. Yet I don't know who the quote is from other than "Not Hitler" and technically it might not even be from a Nazi but quoted by Nazis in public discourse.

---

And not getting to move to Europe is not a punishment, Sheb. That kind of thinking really reveals how much you look down on the rest of the world.

Would you say that the Muslims are here by the allowance of the UK?

[martinuzz]

OKay I think I get what you are trying to say there.

Note that I am not saying 'muslims are building a state within a state', but rather I am saying 'we, as a state are actively encouraging segregation, and that's a bad thing'.
If I say 'they should shut down all muslim schools immediatly', that's not because I am anti muslim (or perhaps I am in a way, because as a rational being I am averse to any dogmatic belief system that imposes itself as the one truth, including amongst others christianity, zionism, scientology, and atheism), or anti immigrant, but rather, I am in favour of us giving them better means to integrate into society.

[Neonivek]

What you want to do Martinuzz if I can gather from what you have wrote is you want to prevent the Ghettoization of the Muslim community and while Multiculturalism is great, it is unfortunately being used as a tool that allows Muslims to avoid interacting much with the rest of the UK and closing the Islamic Schools might be a great way to reverse that trend in a healthy manner?

[martinuzz]

Basically, yes.

Closing down muslim schools isn't some magic fix that'll take away the problems though. It's just a small cog in the machine.

[scriver]

Frankly, I'm never sure in this case if I'm more horrified of the people who wants to punich a whole ethnic/religious group for the actions of one of their member, or the people who want to punish a group for the actions that one of their unborn member might take in half a century.

And not getting to move to Europe is not a punishment, Sheb. That kind of thinking really reveals how much you look down on the rest of the world.

If not a punishment, what is it?

If you had a choice rescinded because of something one of your countrymen did, someone you have no knowledge of, never met, how would you take it?

Perhaps it reveals more about what Sheb thinks about that logic than what he thinks of the rest of the world.

In my mind's context, the people he was saying was being punished was people who want to move to Europe, not people who already live in Europe.

What you want to do Martinuzz if I can gather from what you have wrote is you want to prevent the Ghettoization of the Muslim community and while Multiculturalism is great, it is unfortunately being used as a tool that allows Muslims to avoid interacting much with the rest of the UK and closing the Islamic Schools might be a great way to reverse that trend in a healthy manner?

As I see it, multiculturalism isn't great specifically because it promotes segregation and hinders integration.

[martinuzz]

As I see it, multiculturalism isn't great specifically because it promotes segregation and hinders integration.

Not multiculturalism in itself, but rather the current implementation.

Take for example the US. You wouldn't have Halloween, Mardi Gras or even basketball if it wasn't for multiculturalism. Or donuts. Or pretzels. Or pizza.

[Neonivek]

Well it is really easy to criticize multiculturalism entirely while wrapped in its laurels.

Then again I think strong ghettoization runs counter to multiculturalism. In fact typically places that encourage strong divides between races or religions are not multicultural, at least not by my observation.

[Reelya]

I'm not sure there's evidence that having their own community centers is the issue.

The Manchester guy had little connection to a community, and if you look at the Westminster attacker, he wasn't raise a Muslim, he was a guy with a history of violence, knife attacks, drug and alcohol problems, then in one late stint in jail (he was in at least 4 jails since age 18, mainly for stabbing) he became converted to Islam, by fellow prisoners we can assume. Then he stabbed some more people. what a surprise.

The commonalities seem to be disenfranchisement (could be self-inflicted, but it's still a thing), mental instability and radicalization, but that radicalization often seems to be by like-minded unstable peers rather than a formal community.

So it could be the case that any form of stable social support, e.g. a mosque or other community that you're connected to acts as a buffer to harmful outbursts. e.g. a mosque had members who are men, women, children, young and old. Whereas the social group of the two British "jihadis" of recent attacks both seem to have consisted of male same-age peers who likely also had mental issues, rather than being part of what we'd call a community.

[Neonivek]

I'm not sure there's evidence that having their own community centers is the issue.

The evidence I typically get shown, when I state that, are the sections of the UK that have been forcibly put under Sharia Law... and where basically these towns or sections of cities have been locked down by Muslims.

Which I only bring up because perhaps you Reelya can inform me of what the heck was going on there.

[Reelya]

Even Daily Mail isn't making such a radical claim, Neonivek, so it has to be extremist conspiracy site material. I'd like to see a citation because it's hard to argue against a paraphrased story without seeing sources.

From what I can read, "Sections" of the UK have not been put under Sharia Law at all. That sounds like clear BS. Mosques have some Sharia tribunals attached to them to handle Islamic marriage disputes, that's 99% of what Sharia is about in the UK. But the decisions made there aren't legally binding, they don't overrule UK law. And they're followed voluntarily.

[scriver]

As I see it, multiculturalism isn't great specifically because it promotes segregation and hinders integration.

Not multiculturalism in itself, but rather the current implementation.

Take for example the US. You wouldn't have Halloween, Mardi Gras or even basketball if it wasn't for multiculturalism. Or donuts. Or pretzels. Or pizza.

That's not multiculturalism, that's cultural exchange/migration where one culture adopts traditions or expressions of another.

Well it is really easy to criticize multiculturalism entirely while wrapped in its laurels.

Then again I think strong ghettoization runs counter to multiculturalism. In fact typically places that encourage strong divides between races or religions are not multicultural, at least not by my observation.

That's because you believe in the fairy tale version of multiculturalism where everybody behaves the same way, thinks the same way, and have the same values as your own culture, except "the ethnics" eat slightly different food and dress in different clothes during their wedding ceremonies. I don't think you understand that different cultures means different values, thoughts, and mindsets from your own, and they're not all going to be as palatable to you as the menu down in your neighbourhood Turkic fast food place.

The Manchester guy had little connection to a community, and if you look at the Westminster attacker, he wasn't raise a Muslim, he was a guy with a history of violence, knife attacks, drug and alcohol problems, then in one late stint in jail (he was in at least 4 jails since age 18, mainly for stabbing) he became converted to Islam, by fellow prisoners we can assume. Then he stabbed some more people. what a surprise.

You seem to have an extremely limited interpretation of what a community is.