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[Neonivek]

What do you suggest? Because "there won't be Islamic terrorism in Britain if there aren't any Muslims in Britain" isn't a very difficult logical leap to make and if this kind of thing keeps happening, in the absence of a clear alternative, the idea of just kicking them all out will definitely start catching on.

Its  pretty shoddy logic

It is far more likely that they will just start kicking out Muslims who show any sort of criticism or discontentment towards the UK government and kick their families out while they are at it. AT LEAST that is what was purposed the UK do, I doubt it will catch on.

What the UK is currently doing is quite the read.

Though the fact that Muslims are becoming further vilified (for lack of a better word) means that any sort of community outreach will be difficult.

It should be said that almost universally the Muslim community, well in the UK, has condemned this bombing. By almost, I mean I haven't found any group that hasn't condemned it.

[Sheb]

Frankly, I'm never sure in this case if I'm more horrified of the people who wants to punich a whole ethnic/religious group for the actions of one of their member, or the people who want to punish a group for the actions that one of their unborn member might take in half a century.

[martinuzz]

If his parents hadn't been allowed into the UK, it would not have happened.

Great, should've come up with that... what, 30, 40 years ago?

Well knowing UK narrative... What school did he go to? Public/private or Muslim school?

That might be an angle they will go with. That the isolationist / Anti-assimilation attitude of the Muslim community fosters extremism.

Edit: OHH DEAR GAWD!!! Too many Jew Parallels... Ok so maybe they won't go that far given it is yeah... a direct mirror of the same discrimination pitted against the Jewish community. Yeah so I am probably definitely wrong about this one.

Yes you are completely wrong. Jews didn't segregate themselves from society. Only a handful of very religious and traditional jews did that. Most jews completely blended into society. I tend to say, if there hadn't been Hitler, I would probably not have known that I am jewish.

That's not to say that I don't agree with segregation being a problem. I believe it's one of the main reasons we are getting som many homegrown attacks.
We've removed every incentive to integrate into society by providing them with muslim schools, cheap sattelite dishes, a turkish coffehouse, moroccan teahouse and a halal supermarket on every streetcorner. Closing down muslim schools would be a good first step towards not raising another generation in isolation.

[Sheb]

If his parents hadn't been allowed into the UK, it would not have happened.

Great, should've come up with that... what, 30, 40 years ago?

Well knowing UK narrative... What school did he go to? Public/private or Muslim school?

That might be an angle they will go with. That the isolationist / Anti-assimilation attitude of the Muslim community fosters extremism.

Edit: OHH DEAR GAWD!!! Too many Jew Parallels... Ok so maybe they won't go that far given it is yeah... a direct mirror of the same discrimination pitted against the Jewish community. Yeah so I am probably definitely wrong about this one.

Yes you are completely wrong. Jews didn't segregate themselves from society. Only a handful of very religious and traditional jews did that. Most jews completely blended into society. I tend to say, if there hadn't been Hitler, I would probably not have known that I am jewish.

That's not to say that I don't agree with segregation being a problem. I believe it's one of the main reasons we are getting som many homegrown attacks.
We've removed every incentive to integrate into society by providing them with muslim schools, cheap sattelite dishes, a turkish coffehouse, moroccan teahouse and a halal supermarket on every streetcorner. Closing down muslim schools would be a good first step towards not raising another generation in isolation.

Are muslim school that common in the Netherlands? I think we have a total of one in Belgium.

[scriver]

If his parents hadn't been allowed into the UK, it would not have happened.

No, it would just have been someone else, then you'd say if THAT persons parents hadn't been allowed into the UK, it wouldn't have happened.

I swear that type of argument is actually a type of fallacy, not sure which one thought .

How can you talk about fallacies with a straight face when you are making the argument that if this man would not have lived in the UK some other, completely unknowable, person, through completely unknowable means, would have just "done it instead". This is some shitty arse predeterminist logic you've got there. That kind of nonsense appeal-to-alternative-universes reasoning works great for all kinds of things. "If we had prevented him from owning a gun, somebody else would have accidently shot his kid while playing with it!" "If we hadn't built this pipeline without giving a damn about environmental concerns causing the destruction of this Indian holy ground and leaks into the drinking water, someosomeone else would have!" "If we hadn't released all these greenhouse gases and polluted the atmosphere, someone else just would have! Who? I dont know! Where? I don't know! Why? I don't know! When? I don't know! I don't know.That's the beauty of it, see, I don't have to know. I just have to say it would have happened anyway!"

Frankly, I'm never sure in this case if I'm more horrified of the people who wants to punich a whole ethnic/religious group for the actions of one of their member, or the people who want to punish a group for the actions that one of their unborn member might take in half a century.

I'm a lot more concerned about the people who think "we shouldn't worry about what consequences what we build today will have 20 or 30 years from now!" Because thinking long-term is obviously a bad thing.

And not getting to move to Europe is not a punishment, Sheb. That kind of thinking really reveals how much you look down on the rest of the world.

[Neonivek]

Yes you are completely wrong. Jews didn't segregate themselves from society. Only a handful of very religious and traditional jews did that.

Let me just throw out a random quote out there. Just completely random.

In resisting all government attempts to nationalize them, the Jews build a state within the state

When I say there are parallels I mean there are parallels.

The Truth doesn't trump "The Truth" unfortunately.

[Dorsidwarf]

I think the chances of mrs May (or any politician for that matter) gaining the political power, logistics, and will to deport over two and a half million british citizens and residents (5% of the population) to another country are somewhere between "Fuck off haha" and "get real". Especially considering nowhere will take them, and if they just shipped them out to other places anyway countries would start trade embargoing the UK to make them stop.

Not to mention the fact that I literally can't think of a better way to spawn a bunch of armed insurgencies, other than something insane like mass executions of suspected muslims.

[Neonivek]

Not to mention the fact that I literally can't think of a better way to spawn a bunch of armed insurgencies other than mass executions of suspected muslims.

Ohh no I wasn't suggesting that was going to happen. I only noticed that certain ...rhetoric... is similar to the same used against the Jews.

[Reelya]

What do you suggest? Because "there won't be Islamic terrorism in Britain if there aren't any Muslims in Britain" isn't a very difficult logical leap to make and if this kind of thing keeps happening, in the absence of a clear alternative, the idea of just kicking them all out will definitely start catching on.

That's going to cause worse issues however. It would be like WWIII.

e.g. to solve the problem we could also say "Bush & Co should never have destabilized the few stable realms in the region". It's not wrong but it's too late to say that. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Same thing with immigration. He was born in the UK, he wasn't a refugee or immigrant. It was also the Thatcher government which processed and accepted his family, nothing to do with liberals/labor/left here.

He was a disenfranchised young male (college dropout, single, no job). Since he was a UK-born person you'd have to deport his whole family except him. And then think of the big picture. People who get their family deported tend to get angry, and that could tip more disenfranchised young men over the limit than what you're getting already.

the problem is that the least deportable are in fact the biggest risk - young male 2nd/3rd generation guys who don't have good mental health care or support networks. And deporting their older family members (which is what would happen) is only going to set things on fire.

Actually the irony is that the profile for a radicalizable western-born terrorist sounds a lot like the profile of disenfranchised young men who would be supsceptible to being recruited by the alt right or stormfront etc, MRAs, MGTOWs etc.

[Neonivek]

Wait... Were the French Terrorists second-third or generation Muslims?

[Reelya]

Take a look at some incidents in both UK and france.

- Manchester attacker: 2nd generation immigrant
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/23/europe/manchester-bombing-salman-abedi/

- Westminster attacker: born in Dartford, UK
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/24/khalid-masood-everything-know-london-attacker/

- France, Charlie Hebdo shooting: children of immigrants
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Ch.C3.A9rif_and_Sa.C3.AFd_Kouachi

- France, Nov 2015: planner was Belgian-born muslim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelhamid_Abaaoud
Helped out by a Frenchborn guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabien_Clain

A number of others in various attacks were french nationals, but came from countries previously invaded by France as colonial assets. So there's a bit of anti-colonialism here mixed in with the religion aspect. That's one of the most common links.

Sure there could be some counter-examples, but almost always it's a son of immigrants not an immigrant or refugee. And if we start deporting people's families - and leaving behind local-born children, who can't be deported, then it's likely more high-risk individuals (mentally unstable young men who have low social status) will be deprived of the few social connections / restraints that family provides, and more attacks will happen, not less.

And I'm discounting all the other shit that would hit the fan from creating Gestapo type units to round up immigrants.

[Vilanat]

He was a disenfranchised young male (college dropout, single, no job). Since he was a UK-born person you'd have to deport his whole family except him. And then think of the big picture. People who get their family deported tend to get angry, and that could tip more disenfranchised young men over the limit than what you're getting already.

I've read  that he grew up in an extremely religious environment, attended a mosque which was formerly accused of having ties to Jihadists fund raising in the past and probably dropped out of college to go join Al Qaeda in Libya, aka ISIS. if that's true, he simply followed the path laid before him.

[Reelya]

Well the media is also reporting that his dad is hardcore anti-jihadist who hates ISIS. I guess that depends where you read that. It wasn't Breitbart or Infowars was it?

also this link that I found (Financial Times) suggests he had a troubled youth with joining streetgangs, only later he converted to radical islam, he never got involved with the islamic stuff at college and the mosque in question denies that he ever attended there:
https://www.ft.com/content/59e2a110-3fda-11e7-9d56-25f963e998b2

Other details. Almost all his family had moved overseas recently, meaning he had next to zero family support. He lost his job, dropped out of college, had a troubled youth with the gang thing. We can assume he had no girlfriend, as well as some mental issues (neighbors describe his erratic behavior). It wasn't his upbringing it was a perfect storm of a mentally unstable person having a whole bunch of life stuff collapse in short order, then being radicalized by other unstable individuals of the same age, note that they arrested a 23 year old individual recently.

If ... he had actually been a member of a community such as the local mosque, he might have had some sort of support network that actually prevented this happening, e.g. people to help him out when he lost his job and flunked college. The local imam noted that he's on the local police advisory board and that they're very alert about the types of imams who get hired. He wasn't a member of any sort of formal support network, e.g. formal religion, he was connected with other young unstable dudes.

[Neonivek]

I am actually happy that they aren't blaming videogames anymore.

[martinuzz]

Are muslim school that common in the Netherlands? I think we have a total of one in Belgium.

Heh, they've been popping up like mushrooms in autumn here for the past few decades. There's muslim primary schools, and muslim highschools. Where you have one for the entire nation, we have one per city neigborhood. Tea / coffee houses? One per sub-sub urb. Not yet every streetcorner, but close. Mosques / muslim meeting centers? At least one per ethnicity / islam variant per neighborhood.

It's not evenly divided over the city though. If you go to the wealthier neighborhoods, you'll find little to none.

It's been a returning issue for debate in parliament, whether we should get rid of the so called 'freedom of education' laws, and make public schools really public.
It's always being held back by the christian parties, because if we get rid of the freedom of eduction, they lose their christian schools.

EDIT: for clarification, the freedom of education law states that anyone can found a school based on whatever ideology tickles their fancy. So we have Montessori schools, iPad schools, muslim schools, christian schools, you name it. They do all have to be able to prove to education inspection that they educate the youth up to set national standards though. Christian schools for example are still not allowed to skip evolution, they have to teach it.

EDIT: as a side note, I don't think there's many, or any jewish schools in the Netherlands, or perhaps one, like muslim schools in Belgium. Dutch jews have a tradition of integrating with their fellow Dutchmen.