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[scriver]

The way EU officials have been expressing themselves it certainly seems so to me.

[smjjames]

I'm not saying countries shouldn't be able to leave the EU, I'm saying it's not really diplomatic of Mr Trump to urge them to do so. Plus, Junker gotta Juncker.

Spoiler: Transcript of the start (click to show/hide)

lol.....

[Sergarr]

The way EU officials have been expressing themselves it certainly seems so to me.

Fucking over UK has an important purpose of showing what happens to the traitors to the Union, which will serve the purpose of increasing the unity and put EU further towards federalization.

[Frumple]

... most of what they seem to be calling for isn't really "fucking over", though. Just treating the UK like someone not in the union and/or supporting the ones that are over (relatively soon to no longer be a member) UK interests. Which does kinda' fuck 'em over (go figure, a major economic alliance with local powers is just a wee bit beneficial), but that doesn't appear to be the intent even if the occasional bit of rhetoric leans that way.

More than punishing someone, the EU needs to be showing they will support their own first and foremost. Not particularly their problem if the UK stuck their head up their own arse and refused to acknowledge the consequences of that... or decided they'd be better off without that support, to be more charitable. Fair amount of the euroskeptic screeching about the EU wanting to punish the UK is just idiots that didn't realize they had a really goddamn good deal and they weren't going to get to keep it while dropping their end of the bargain.

[Frumple]

Eh, if what the UK was getting on that front and all the rest of them wasn't enough, I doubt taking a dump on humanitarian issues would have made a difference. Lot that cared about that would have just buried the polish under more shit or somethin'.

[Sergarr]

Great news, everyone: Germany rejects US (read: Trump's) pressure for Nato spending rise. Smart people!

[smjjames]

Great news, everyone: Germany rejects US (read: Trump's) pressure for Nato spending rise. Smart people!

I wonder if Trumps extortion attempt had anything to do with it. Though both sides are denying that Trump ever tried to do that.

[martinuzz]

Part of the Dutch Turk population can't pay their rent and food, because Erdogan stole their paychecks.
Erdogan ordered the confiscation and closing down of a Turkish bank, Bank Asya, that according to him has ties to the Gülen movement. Quite a few Dutch Turks have an account with that bank, and recieve their paychecks there.

I don't think they can apply for welfare, because they are already employed, and I highly doubt the Dutch state is gonna cough up money to replace the cash that Erdogan stole. According to the newspaper Trouw, Erdogan froze a total of 1.6 billion euros. Anyone who had an account with the bank is automatically put on the list of terrorism suspects (as in, everyone who has an account there is now officially accused and charges filed against them by the criminal justice department). Dutch Turks can get their money back, but only if they travel to Turkey in person to defend against the case against them. No sane Turk is going to do that in the current paranoid dictator climate.

The Turkish consulate in the Netherlands refuses to help the Netherturks, because 'orders from Turkey'.

Inb4 the Dutch state decides to reimburse the Turks after all, and Erdogan accuses it of funding terrorism.

[Kot]

That or he's purposely fucking everything as a way of saying to the Turkish people "THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T ELECT DICTATORS!"

Yeah, just as Trump is only pretending to be deranged lunatic to gain votes to win the elections...
OH WAIT.

[Azzuro]

That or he's purposely fucking everything as a way of saying to the Turkish people "THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T ELECT DICTATORS!"

Yeah, just as Trump is only pretending to be deranged lunatic to gain votes to win the elections...
OH WAIT.

I still remember the good old days when people thought he would spend his speech at the Republican National Convention admitting the long con and mocking the Republicans.
...
Then the days when people thought he would do that at his inauguration speech.

Absolute paranoid lunatic works pretty well as an explanation for Erdogan's actions, without getting into the whole 11-D chess thing.

On a more serious note, are most Dutch Turks for or against Erdogan? And I also doubt the Dutch state is going to be so charitable, for little relative gain and possibly huge political opposition.

[smjjames]

Pretty sure he's lost the vote of those that he's withheld the paychecks from anyway, Azzuro. If he ever had the vote of those.

Seems like he sees Gulen ties everywhere, or at least only those that disagree with him.

[scriver]

... most of what they seem to be calling for isn't really "fucking over", though. Just treating the UK like someone not in the union and/or supporting the ones that are over (relatively soon to no longer be a member) UK interests. Which does kinda' fuck 'em over (go figure, a major economic alliance with local powers is just a wee bit beneficial), but that doesn't appear to be the intent even if the occasional bit of rhetoric leans that way.

More than punishing someone, the EU needs to be showing they will support their own first and foremost. Not particularly their problem if the UK stuck their head up their own arse and refused to acknowledge the consequences of that... or decided they'd be better off without that support, to be more charitable. Fair amount of the euroskeptic screeching about the EU wanting to punish the UK is just idiots that didn't realize they had a really goddamn good deal and they weren't going to get to keep it while dropping their end of the bargain.

The best thing for EU's own is to make sure that the trade with the UK proceeds as unhindered as possible. This is the best thing for the EU too. The only entity that would be bad for would be the EU imperialists who wants to dominate and shit all over the citizens of EU countries.

[Erkki]

--- The only entity that would be bad for would be the EU imperialists who wants to dominate and shit all over the citizens of EU countries.

So Junckner and the rest of the Commission, at least?  Agreed on trade and co-operation between UK and EU countries needing to proceed as unhindered as possible being best for every party.

[martinuzz]

On a more serious note, are most Dutch Turks for or against Erdogan? And I also doubt the Dutch state is going to be so charitable, for little relative gain and possibly huge political opposition.

I'd estimate it to be about 50%-50%. How many of those 50% actually had an account at Bank Asya, no idea. It's not something the Dutch government can just ignore I think. There's nearly a million Turks in the Netherlands, which is nearly 1/17th of the total population. If this affects a significant number of people, they can't just sit by and let people get into debts because they lost a month's income or more. People in debt cost the state money, either directly or indirectly. Which is why we have extensive debt prevention programs and debt relief programs.

EDIT: checking the wiki, apparently it's 400000 - 500000 Turks living in the Netherlands. It seems their numbers have dwindled over the years, it used to be more. Combination of economy in Turkey improving (at least up until a year or two ago), and Dutch companies offshoring manufacturing jobs, I guess. It does make sense. I know quite a few Turks myself who returned to Turkey after retirement, and Turks whose Dutch born children returned to Turkey to set up business there.

[Azzuro]

Ah, I was wondering what portion of Turks in foreign countries support the Turkish government. Down here in Southeast Asia there's quite a lot of dislike among the Chinese diaspora for the PRC. If the account freezing is indiscriminate he's going to turn previously-undecided Dutch Turks against him with good reason. What does the Dutch state do for them?