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[scriver]

Hey, if you think the Church of Sweden can be considered a bearer of conservative christian rethoric, then I'm pretty sure I'm not the one getting my info out of 4chan.

Yeah, if you aren't actually going to anchor your observations to the countries you're trying to observe then I'm not surprised your deductions end up being flawed. You can't see the world through your own navel, man.

Got time to type out massive walls of text about whatever, but not to click Preview and fix your quote tags? Shameful, you guys.

I have no idea what you're talking about, that post of me quoting tempacc quoting me is perfectly fine!

[Rolepgeek]

So we should prop up dictatorships and ensure that people have no freedom of their own?

It's ripping off a band aid versus torturing someone with it on.

Do you think religious Christianity is inherently pro-feudalism or something? Have you read the Bible?

No, your username and opinions expressed this far just made wonder if you were a particular form of alt-right, the one that wants to go back to a monarchy system and thinks democracy is a failure rather than being neo-nazis.

And your views on dictatorships makes me think you never lives through the collapse of one. Don't get me wrong, there's certain things I would find unacceptable, but stability and a sense of order can be much nicer than regional warlords and 10-20 years of chaos because no one bothered setting up a system to replace the dictator effectively beforehand. It's like taking a cast off a badly broken limb that has a wound in it that might fester. Either way, there's gonna be issues , but if you aren't careful getting that cast off, you're just gonna make things worse.

[Vilanat]

Source?

http://www.brin.ac.uk/2014/the-british-election-study-2015-religious-affiliation-and-attitudes/

Just some tables and things there with poll data from different religious groups in the UK on voting intentions. Sample sizes are pretty crap outside Atheists and Anglicans, but the trends match up with some stuff I've read in the past.

Didn't have much time to look further yet because it was 2 in the morning and I have work. If the conversation hasn't zoomed by when I get home later I might go look further into it.

I didn't ask for a source for the latest political voting trend of Jews, i asked for a source for your statement that Jews tend to be socially conservative which i find to be in contrast to my experience and knowledge and even the source of the source you linked to actually affirms that:

"However, when it comes to personal morality, Jews hold far more liberal stances on abortion, for example, than other religious groups. 54% of British Jews-by-religion would keep the time limit for abortions at 24 weeks or even raise it, as against 44% among adherents of the Church of England.

Similarly, with respect to whether same sex couples should be allowed or not allowed to get married, Jews-by-religion split 52%/39% as against 44%/43% for Church of England.

For Jews, proponents of gay marriage vastly outnumber opponents 77% to 18%, in comparison with a smaller margin of 69%/20% for non-Jews with no religion."

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/new-surveys-shed-light-on-who-we-are-1.49542

These are "Jews by religion", which is only 2/3 of the Jews asked. if it was Jews by ethnicity or lineage or whatever, i bet the Social trends would lean even more to the liberal.

Since Muslims clearly vote for Labour, unless you are trying to suggest that Muslims tend to be socially liberal based on their voting trends, which would be ridiculous, we can safely assume voting trends in the UK has little to nothing to do with the social values the followers of these religions hold.

[Rolepgeek]

I believe it's because Jews have often been a persecuted minority, and have never really been the majority in any country except Israel for the last...how many thousand years?

So they have some sympathy for other minorities. Also Judaism seems much less...intense? than the other two Abrahamic religions? If that makes sense? It's less personal emotional investment, more community and family, in terms of the actual practices of the religion (not necessarily the history and traditions, considering they involve significant amounts of getting fucked over).

[Rolepgeek]

I mean, I have no factual evidence of such, it's just my impressions of it. It could be just the result of not being in the majority, like previously stated, and in places like Israel maybe it is a lot of personal emotional investment and devotion to the fundamentals of the text rather than rationalized interpretations (rationalized in the sense of rationalization), but there's more justification in the New Testament than the Old for supporting gay marriage.

[Loud Whispers]

Shabos goyim

[SaberToothTiger]

oy vey

[TempAcc]

oy yoy yoy

[WealthyRadish]

Ignoring everything else for now, but where did anyone suggest progressive values lead to technological advancement?

The continual decline of wages has more to do with decreasing margins of production and the monopoly of land ownership than it does with the gross supply of labor or pressures of population (though you are right about a "progressive" society depressing wages in the sense of technological innovation). As society grows more efficient and productive (and a greater portion of economic activity is done in large cities with extremely high land values), the gain in the value of goods and services produced does not translate into higher wages; it actually has the opposite effect, as increasingly marginal land is exploited and labor grows increasingly dependent on land and capital. Almost all of the newly created wealth is swallowed up by rent, either directly or indirectly, while labor (and to a lesser extent capital) experiences a decrease in the portion earned.

This is part of why I hate the word "progressive." It's impossible to refer to progress, which should by definition be progressive (and progressive policies likewise be policies with the aim of progress), without it dredging up whatever connotations the individual has attributed to the word that give it a completely different meaning and renders it useless for communication.

I don't know what "progressive values" are, but I can tell you that a society that is progressing, at the bare minimum in the economic sense, is benefiting from -- there's that word again -- technological progress.

[Rolepgeek]

I mean it's a whole separate argument, so I'll leave it at this post, but what you said gave me the impression you've never heard of, for example, young boys in Manchester whose regular Saturday morning job was to go around turning on lights/fires/electronics for the local Jews because their religion forbade them from doing so.

*shrug* Nope, not really. Though, I suppose to me that doesn't seem like emotional investment? Judaism still has it's rituals and ceremonial rules like any other religion, and in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it's adherents stuck with them more, but rituals are often ways to cement and form community ties, from what I know. (Afaik) a lot of the more 'intense' religions have much less codified and laid-out rituals. They're more informal, and usually more about personal emotional experience/connection to God. Like Protestantism, particularly like, the Quakers and the various awakenings, versus Catholicism, I suppose. I'm probably not explaining what I'm seeing all that well, and it might be a pattern that doesn't actually exist and it's just me overanalyzing stuff again.

[Vilanat]

I believe it's because Jews have often been a persecuted minority, and have never really been the majority in any country except Israel for the last...how many thousand years?

Slightly less than thousands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Semien

[WealthyRadish]

This is my favorite example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

[Grim Portent]

Judaism is a diverse faith, not as much as Christianity or Islam to my knowledge, but it still has a bunch of different interpretations, some stricter than others on ritual and social matters. My main experience with religious Jews is with the middle of the road to strict ones, who have not been what I would call liberal by any means, though the non-religious and less religious ethnic Jews I've met (I've probably met more than I'm aware of due to it not coming up in conversation and a lack of visual signifiers of culture) have been more liberal. Don't meet many though, very small demographic in all the countries I've lived in, so my experiences aren't representative anyway. Would be interested to see a good statistical breakdown of Jewish populations by interpretation of scripture, but I can't find any.



Anyway, I did a bit more looking into the matter of Jews and their voting trends. The articles I can find say that Jews in the US strongly trend Democrat, but the ones I can find for the UK indicate that the population as a whole in Britain (which is a tiny demographic, I think one article said they're 0.5% of the electorate) is roughly evenly split and they follow the age divide in party allegiance rather than a religious one or say that they trend Conservative. You'd think someone would have been polling stuff like this and compiling graphs over the past few decades but apparently not. /sigh

Looked into Israel itself a bit, figured it might be a good insight into political trends for the demographic elsewhere. I can't find much  concrete on the social platforms of the major parties beyond blanket terminology like 'Liberal', which doesn't tell me much, but Israel seems to have a good record on homosexual rights and gender identity. Not great on the homosexual marriage and adoption front, but still seem to be pretty good as things go. Race relations are mixed. Overall seems to be slanted towards liberal policy and interpretation of law, lot of laws that were written with heterosexuals in mind were determined to cover homosexuals as well, racism is officially denounced even if still institutionally a problem in a lot of ways, so on and so forth.

[Vilanat]

This is my favorite example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

How is that an example of Jews being a majority in a country? unless you adhere to the:

This theory still finds occasional support, but most scholars view it with skepticism. The theory is sometimes associated with antisemitism and anti-Zionism.

there's no reason even bringing it up.

[Baffler]

Why is it even objectionable to say that the Khazar nobility were Jewish/said they were Jewish?