Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Loud Whispers]

That needs to change. Germany needs to rebuild its military tradition and military strength.

It is however pretty much a guaranteed that if Germans are in uniform it's one glossed over with the euro-prefix

This would allow it to build an effective and active military force whilst avoiding the psychological block caused by their history, in addition to allaying French or Polish fears about German rearmament. It is interesting to see that Germany is gradually relearning how to use its economic might to flex actual might, like arming and training foreign fighters or offering logistical support to French soldiers. These actions look like trial runs, the precursors to eventually deploying their own soldiers abroad, learning from their allies

Tbh as long as Germany isn't going to try uboat the UK to death again this seems more or less a good thing. Germany can't be hitler forever

[Kot]

No need for a reducto ad hitlerum, friend-o. Germany doesn't behave the same way it did in 1939. Frankly, the complete neutering of German military power lasting to this day is kind of disgusting to me, including permanent limits on its military's size.

I am sure that Panzerlied is still used by Bundeswehr. ANYWAY THOUGH, it seems that Germany went the other way, with the refugee crisis and whatnot. I wouldn't mind seeing Germans rolling into Russia on defending democracy with panzers side to side with glorious Polish Winged Hussars tanks but I must say that with the current, how to put it, world view of German (and, to be honest, most of the EU) government those panzers aren't rolling far. Having great army doesn't mean shit if you're willing to just bend over to anyone barely threatening.

And, to be honest, German army shouldn't be allowed to get back where they were until Germans learn to live with their past and stop acting like it never happened. Don't say they don't, because they clearly do, and while they do have one argument (fear of the Neo-Nazis), the policy of censorship and so on is even more disgusting, and the best example is taking a fucking pigeon goose-stepping to a marching song as a call back to Hitler. Germans goose-stepped for long time before him and will for long time after, just as the Poles will forever be most glorious nation of all the Earth and the Winged Hussars the mightest fighting force in history.
Reductio ad Hitlerum is not going to get anyone anywhere, but trying to never ever mention him again is not helpful either.

Tbh as long as Germany isn't going to try uboat the UK to death again this seems more or less a good thing. Germany can't be hitler forever

That's very classic British point of view, same shit as in 1939. As long as they're not U-Boating us to death, let them do anything they want in Europe. Germany can't be German Empire forever.

[Pwnzerfaust]

No need for a reducto ad hitlerum, friend-o. Germany doesn't behave the same way it did in 1939. Frankly, the complete neutering of German military power lasting to this day is kind of disgusting to me, including permanent limits on its military's size.

I am sure that Panzerlied is still used by Bundeswehr. ANYWAY THOUGH, it seems that Germany went the other way, with the refugee crisis and whatnot. I wouldn't mind seeing Germans rolling into Russia on defending democracy with panzers side to side with glorious Polish Winged Hussars tanks but I must say that with the current, how to put it, world view of German (and, to be honest, most of the EU) government those panzers aren't rolling far. Having great army doesn't mean shit if you're willing to just bend over to anyone barely threatening.

And, to be honest, German army shouldn't be allowed to get back where they were until Germans learn to live with their past and stop acting like it never happened. Don't say they don't, because they clearly do, and while they do have one argument (fear of the Neo-Nazis), the policy of censorship and so on is even more disgusting, and the best example is taking a fucking pigeon goose-stepping to a marching song as a call back to Hitler. Germans goose-stepped for long time before him and will for long time after, just as the Poles will forever be most glorious nation of all the Earth and the Winged Hussars the mightest fighting force in history.
Reductio ad Hitlerum is not going to get anyone anywhere, but trying to never ever mention him again is not helpful either.

You serious? You think they pretend it didn't happen? Do you know anything about how the rise of fascism and Hitler is taught in Germany? Do you know how it's treated? Germans self-flagellate all the fucking time about it. The younger generations less so, to some degree, but that is only justified, as that shit happened seventy fucking years ago.

If you want to talk about a country pretending the past didn't happen, let's talk about how Poland treats the ethnic cleansing of Eastern Germany between 1945 and 1950.

[scriver]

Yeah, Germany teaches about nazism and WWII and the holocaust to no end, one cannot fault it for not a lack of trying. But the German state itself still acts like it has a natural right to govern Europe, an innate claim to leadership and domination, and consequently an entitlement to other states. I personally feel that the reason Germans are so positive towards the EU and a future United States of Europe isn't chiefly because they are less nationalistic than the rest of the European peoples - it is because the German people-soul is still the most imperialistic.

[Loud Whispers]

I am sure that Panzerlied is still used by Bundeswehr. ANYWAY THOUGH, it seems that Germany went the other way, with the refugee crisis and whatnot. I wouldn't mind seeing Germans rolling into Russia on defending democracy with panzers side to side with glorious Polish Winged Hussars tanks but I must say that with the current, how to put it, world view of German (and, to be honest, most of the EU) government those panzers aren't rolling far. Having great army doesn't mean shit if you're willing to just bend over to anyone barely threatening.
And, to be honest, German army shouldn't be allowed to get back where they were until Germans learn to live with their past and stop acting like it never happened. Don't say they don't, because they clearly do, and while they do have one argument (fear of the Neo-Nazis), the policy of censorship and so on is even more disgusting, and the best example is taking a fucking pigeon goose-stepping to a marching song as a call back to Hitler. Germans goose-stepped for long time before him and will for long time after, just as the Poles will forever be most glorious nation of all the Earth and the Winged Hussars the mightest fighting force in history.
Reductio ad Hitlerum is not going to get anyone anywhere, but trying to never ever mention him again is not helpful either.

All very good points, but I simply must ask: Do you put wings on your tanks? Moreover, which is preferable, Germany kowtowing to far weaker states like Turkey, or Germany rolling tanks into Istanbul?

That's very classic British point of view, same shit as in 1939. As long as they're not U-Boating us to death, let them do anything they want in Europe. Germany can't be German Empire forever.

Well you got me there
The way I see it, all the times after the Napoleonic wars that the UK has sacrificed its generations to maintain status quo in Europe, it has not been long before someone has tried to establish European hegemony all over again. Whilst we're still in the EU we're still putting the whole EU military on hold, but thereafter it'll be up to Poland and France to decide whether they want a lasting German hegemony
Thus I hold the view as long as they're not U-boating us to death there is no need to have a preemptive strike on Berlin, especially as the chance of civil war in Germany increases they will need a strong military keeping civil order

Yeah, Germany teaches about nazism and WWII and the holocaust to no end, one cannot fault it for not a lack of trying. But the German state itself still acts like it has a natural right to govern Europe, an innate claim to leadership and domination, and consequently an entitlement to other states. I personally feel that the reason Germans are so positive towards the EU and a future United States of Europe isn't chiefly because they are less nationalistic than the rest of the European peoples - it is because the German people-soul is still the most imperialistic.

I don't think there's anything inherently imperialistic about the German soul, it's more a fact of Germany's economic dominance over Europe; look at the USA's transformation from an agrarian republic to a world superpower for example, powerful nations build up the institutions that seek more power

[smjjames]

I am sure that Panzerlied is still used by Bundeswehr. ANYWAY THOUGH, it seems that Germany went the other way, with the refugee crisis and whatnot. I wouldn't mind seeing Germans rolling into Russia on defending democracy with panzers side to side with glorious Polish Winged Hussars tanks but I must say that with the current, how to put it, world view of German (and, to be honest, most of the EU) government those panzers aren't rolling far. Having great army doesn't mean shit if you're willing to just bend over to anyone barely threatening.
And, to be honest, German army shouldn't be allowed to get back where they were until Germans learn to live with their past and stop acting like it never happened. Don't say they don't, because they clearly do, and while they do have one argument (fear of the Neo-Nazis), the policy of censorship and so on is even more disgusting, and the best example is taking a fucking pigeon goose-stepping to a marching song as a call back to Hitler. Germans goose-stepped for long time before him and will for long time after, just as the Poles will forever be most glorious nation of all the Earth and the Winged Hussars the mightest fighting force in history.
Reductio ad Hitlerum is not going to get anyone anywhere, but trying to never ever mention him again is not helpful either.

All very good points, but I simply must ask: Do you put wings on your tanks? Moreover, which is preferable, Germany kowtowing to far weaker states like Turkey, or Germany rolling tanks into Istanbul?

Here's a winged tank. Not polish though,

[Kot]

You serious? You think they pretend it didn't happen? Do you know anything about how the rise of fascism and Hitler is taught in Germany? Do you know how it's treated? Germans self-flagellate all the fucking time about it. The younger generations less so, to some degree, but that is only justified, as that shit happened seventy fucking years ago.

Oh, but we feel so fucking sorry about it it's okay. Except no, that's not the point either. You feel so fucking sorry that you literally go extra length to make sure that nobody would ever try to accuse Germany of Nazism again and yet still any mention causes Germany to go caustic, games are banned because they want to be historically accurate (I may have this talk mainly because I am salty because I can't shoot down swastikas in War Thunder) and the only thing that's stopping me from equalizing EU to another try at ruling the Europe is how memetic that is. Meanwhile, when we flip the fuck out when someone AGAIN says Polish death camps it's overreaction.
Okay.
And seventy years is not even a real argument since Poland still holds nation-wide wanks over Grunw- pardon, Tannenberg and Cedynia.

If you want to talk about a country pretending the past didn't happen, let's talk about how Poland treats the ethnic cleansing of Eastern Germany between 1945 and 1950.

>Poland
You do realize that Poland had literally no choice about this (not that we didin't want to, after WW2 it was quite understandable that people wanted to see Germans in hell)? And fuck, I am very much sure that we'd prefer to keep the pre-war borders with Wilno and Lwów and so on (which would lead to me not being a thing, as half my family is descended from ethnic Germans that signed the papers that they prefer to be Polish after the war. My grandgranduncle actually fought in a panzer in Kursk, though I never really learned in what panzer or at which position). It's not like the Eastern Poland wasn't ethnically cleansed post-WW2 either.

All very good points, but I simply must ask: Do you put wings on your tanks? Moreover, which is preferable, Germany kowtowing to far weaker states like Turkey, or Germany rolling tanks into Istanbul?

We'd love to but that's apparently not NATO compliant. :/
Also, I guess the second option, but I'm not sure if it's Turkey that's the big evil here.

That's very classic British point of view, same shit as in 1939. As long as they're not U-Boating us to death, let them do anything they want in Europe. Germany can't be German Empire forever.

Well you got me there
The way I see it, all the times after the Napoleonic wars that the UK has sacrificed its generations to maintain status quo in Europe, it has not been long before someone has tried to establish European hegemony all over again. Whilst we're still in the EU we're still putting the whole EU military on hold, but thereafter it'll be up to Poland and France to decide whether they want a lasting German hegemony
Thus I hold the view as long as they're not U-boating us to death there is no need to have a preemptive strike on Berlin, especially as the chance of civil war in Germany increases they will need a strong military keeping civil order

What if they start gassing the Christians? This I mean in completly theoretical way, because, you know, Britian totally knew about the thing with Jews and they would be more than happy to not intervene. Would they totally repeat that one? I think they totally would.

Here's a winged tank. Not polish though,

>Russian tanks
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[smjjames]

You serious? You think they pretend it didn't happen? Do you know anything about how the rise of fascism and Hitler is taught in Germany? Do you know how it's treated? Germans self-flagellate all the fucking time about it. The younger generations less so, to some degree, but that is only justified, as that shit happened seventy fucking years ago.

Oh, but we feel so fucking sorry about it it's okay. Except no, that's not the point either. You feel so fucking sorry that you literally go extra length to make sure that nobody would ever try to accuse Germany of Nazism again and yet still any mention causes Germany to go caustic, games are banned because they want to be historically accurate (I may have this talk mainly because I am salty because I can't shoot down swastikas in War Thunder) and the only thing that's stopping me from equalizing EU to another try at ruling the Europe is how memetic that is. Meanwhile, when we flip the fuck out when someone AGAIN says Polish death camps it's overreaction.
Okay.
And seventy years is not even a real argument since Poland still holds nation-wide wanks over Grunw- pardon, Tannenberg and Cedynia.

If you want to talk about a country pretending the past didn't happen, let's talk about how Poland treats the ethnic cleansing of Eastern Germany between 1945 and 1950.

>Poland
You do realize that Poland had literally no choice about this (not that we didin't want to, after WW2 it was quite understandable that people wanted to see Germans in hell)? And fuck, I am very much sure that we'd prefer to keep the pre-war borders with Wilno and Lwów and so on (which would lead to me not being a thing, as half my family is descended from ethnic Germans that signed the papers that they prefer to be Polish after the war. My grandgranduncle actually fought in a panzer in Kursk, though I never really learned in what panzer or at which position). It's not like the Eastern Poland wasn't ethnically cleansed post-WW2 either.

All very good points, but I simply must ask: Do you put wings on your tanks? Moreover, which is preferable, Germany kowtowing to far weaker states like Turkey, or Germany rolling tanks into Istanbul?

We'd love to but that's apparently not NATO compliant. :/
Also, I guess the second option, but I'm not sure if it's Turkey that's the big evil here.

That's very classic British point of view, same shit as in 1939. As long as they're not U-Boating us to death, let them do anything they want in Europe. Germany can't be German Empire forever.

Well you got me there
The way I see it, all the times after the Napoleonic wars that the UK has sacrificed its generations to maintain status quo in Europe, it has not been long before someone has tried to establish European hegemony all over again. Whilst we're still in the EU we're still putting the whole EU military on hold, but thereafter it'll be up to Poland and France to decide whether they want a lasting German hegemony
Thus I hold the view as long as they're not U-boating us to death there is no need to have a preemptive strike on Berlin, especially as the chance of civil war in Germany increases they will need a strong military keeping civil order

What if they start gassing the Christians? This I mean in completly theoretical way, because, you know, Britian totally knew about the thing with Jews and they would be more than happy to not intervene. Would they totally repeat that one? I think they totally would.

Here's a winged tank. Not polish though,

>Russian tanks
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I knew what you meant Kot, just ribbing you. There's a Japanese and an UK one in there too though.

[Pwnzerfaust]

You serious? You think they pretend it didn't happen? Do you know anything about how the rise of fascism and Hitler is taught in Germany? Do you know how it's treated? Germans self-flagellate all the fucking time about it. The younger generations less so, to some degree, but that is only justified, as that shit happened seventy fucking years ago.

Oh, but we feel so fucking sorry about it it's okay. Except no, that's not the point either. You feel so fucking sorry that you literally go extra length to make sure that nobody would ever try to accuse Germany of Nazism again and yet still any mention causes Germany to go caustic, games are banned because they want to be historically accurate (I may have this talk mainly because I am salty because I can't shoot down swastikas in War Thunder) and the only thing that's stopping me from equalizing EU to another try at ruling the Europe is how memetic that is. Meanwhile, when we flip the fuck out when someone AGAIN says Polish death camps it's overreaction.
Okay.
And seventy years is not even a real argument since Poland still holds nation-wide wanks over Grunw- pardon, Tannenberg and Cedynia.

This is a lot of babble without a point that I can discern.

If you want to talk about a country pretending the past didn't happen, let's talk about how Poland treats the ethnic cleansing of Eastern Germany between 1945 and 1950.

>Poland
You do realize that Poland had literally no choice about this (not that we didin't want to, after WW2 it was quite understandable that people wanted to see Germans in hell)? And fuck, I am very much sure that we'd prefer to keep the pre-war borders with Wilno and Lwów and so on (which would lead to me not being a thing, as half my family is descended from ethnic Germans that signed the papers that they prefer to be Polish after the war. My grandgranduncle actually fought in a panzer in Kursk, though I never really learned in what panzer or at which position). It's not like the Eastern Poland wasn't ethnically cleansed post-WW2 either.

I didn't say Poland had a choice. I said, how they treat it currently. No apologies, downplaying what happened, and all that. Yes, they were pressed into it, but it's not like they were reluctant. They performed the bloody tasks right alongside the Soviets with gusto. And yes, I do understand the why of it. But that doesn't change the fact that Poland helped commit atrocities, and that fact isn't excused by the fact of "but they did it first". Besides which, almost all of the civilians that were raped, killed, and expelled from Schlesien, Pommern, Preußen, etc. had nothing to do with the atrocities whatsoever.

[Kot]

This is a lot of babble without a point that I can discern.

You do realize that Polish name for Germans, Niemcy, comes from the word "Niemy" which means mute, because we literally couldn't understand a single shit you were saying.
So I guess that's mutual feelings. :p

I didn't say Poland had a choice. I said, how they treat it currently. No apologies, downplaying what happened, and all that. Yes, they were pressed into it, but it's not like they were reluctant. They performed the bloody tasks right alongside the Soviets with gusto. And yes, I do understand the why of it. But that doesn't change the fact that Poland helped commit atrocities, and that fact isn't excused by the fact of "but they did it first". Besides which, almost all of the civilians that were raped, killed, and expelled from Schlesien, Pommern, Preußen, etc. had nothing to do with the atrocities whatsoever.

Apologies totally happened. German minority is obnoxious as fuck, there had to be some after Soviets were finally gone, not to mention that I know a lot of cases where families are running into legal trouble because some fucks from Germany come and claim that it's their land. Downplaying... well, maybe? I don't really see how it would be downplayed, as everyone who wanted to be German went the fuck away and everyone who wanted to be Polish (of course, with exceptions made for people who helped Nazis and such) stayed.
You're right, the atrocities are not excused by "they did it first" (though you could fuck off with the "rape" things, that's Red Army, Poles weren't even in state to commit true atrocities at this point especially considering that they basically went through the same shit as Germans did from Russians because it wasn't really that much difference to them), but they are excused by one tiny little nearly irrelevant detail...
Poland, at least in theory, won the war.

[Pwnzerfaust]

This is a lot of babble without a point that I can discern.

You do realize that Polish name for Germans, Niemcy, comes from the word "Niemy" which means mute, because we literally couldn't understand a single shit you were saying.
So I guess that's mutual feelings. :p

I'm aware of the origin of the Slavic term for Germans. My girlfriend (a Russian national) and I have discussed it before. Kind of amusing, really.

I didn't say Poland had a choice. I said, how they treat it currently. No apologies, downplaying what happened, and all that. Yes, they were pressed into it, but it's not like they were reluctant. They performed the bloody tasks right alongside the Soviets with gusto. And yes, I do understand the why of it. But that doesn't change the fact that Poland helped commit atrocities, and that fact isn't excused by the fact of "but they did it first". Besides which, almost all of the civilians that were raped, killed, and expelled from Schlesien, Pommern, Preußen, etc. had nothing to do with the atrocities whatsoever.

Apologies totally happened.

No, they didn't. As far as I'm aware, no country that took part in the ethnic cleansing of German territories in the East has ever given an official apology for the atrocities they committed. In fact, as recently as the late 90s, 86% of Czechs said they would reject apologizing to Germany for their part in the ethnic cleansing of the Sudetendeutsche.

German minority is obnoxious as fuck, there had to be some after Soviets were finally gone, not to mention that I know a lot of cases where families are running into legal trouble because some fucks from Germany come and claim that it's their land.

It's historically German territory, so German "minority" is kind of misleading.

Downplaying... well, maybe? I don't really see how it would be downplayed, as everyone who wanted to be German went the fuck away and everyone who wanted to be Polish (of course, with exceptions made for people who helped Nazis and such) stayed.

Downplayed as in, Poland likes to claim the ethnic cleansing affected fewer people than it actually did, or downplaying the number of Germans who were killed, etc.

You're right, the atrocities are not excused by "they did it first" (though you could fuck off with the "rape" things, that's Red Army, Poles weren't even in state to commit true atrocities at this point especially considering that they basically went through the same shit as Germans did from Russians because it wasn't really that much difference to them), but they are excused by one tiny little nearly irrelevant detail...
Poland, at least in theory, won the war.

Victory doesn't excuse any atrocity (and anyway, saying Poland won the war is like saying the fly won the fight with the spider when it got crushed by a boot after the fly was entangled in a web).

[Loud Whispers]

We'd love to but that's apparently not NATO compliant. :/

top kekles

Also, I guess the second option, but I'm not sure if it's Turkey that's the big evil here.

I don't see it as a good or evil thing most of the time, the more you learn about your enemies you find a lot of them are motivated by the same concerns you have. We all want food, water & family, the goal is to minimize the conflict to attain it
If Germany had to send tanks after Turkey in a show of force (or an actual intervention, such as after the coup), it would just be one state completing its agenda vs one failing it. I think it can be summarized as might does not make right, but might makes. At least we can establish that there are situations where Germany having no power is not preferable to Germany having power :P

What if they start gassing the Christians? This I mean in completly theoretical way, because, you know, Britian totally knew about the thing with Jews and they would be more than happy to not intervene. Would they totally repeat that one? I think they totally would.

Except that's wrong
Anyways I'd support intervention then, on moral and practical grounds. Not without Polish or French support though, and I'd like it to be an absolute last resort since war is expensive and there's little way to go to war with a rival great power that doesn't get messy, very quickly. The UK beat Germany twice and ended up economically dislocated in victory to the point where its victory looked like defeat, there are no winners there except those who didn't fight, thus only fight if fighting is inevitable (the whole if they're not uboating us doctrine and all). I suppose this is all contingent on whether the EU survives or not, if Frexit and Polout happens then everything changes

[Rolepgeek]

Yeah, Greece is probably super happy about being under das Boot too.

Precisely. We'd be much more polite and self-conscious.

Germans aren't known for being polite and self-conscious, Helgo. They are known for being fat, loud, and self-entitled.

You're thinking of Americans, scriver

Germans are known for food, beer, and snazzy fashion sense.

[Loud Whispers]

You're thinking of Americans, scriver

Germans are known for food, beer, and snazzy fashion sense.

Food and beer are the reasons for #1, and snazzy fashion sense belongs to the French stereotype so Scriver just missed 'great engineering,' 'stubbornness', 'sternness', 'depravity', 'humility' and 'frankness'

Also something about digging holes on beaches. I think that last one is a historical thing, as Germans don't really do that these days, certainly not more than everyone else digs stuff on the beach

[martinuzz]

Also something about digging holes on beaches. I think that last one is a historical thing.

Tell that to our coastal cities during summer season. There's this joke over here that no nation will ever conquer the Dutch beaches during summer time, because every inch is covered by dug in Germans.