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[Sergarr]

By "medieval Europeans", I meant contemporary with Eastern Roman Empire ones. Medieval European cavalry was better than Eastern Roman one, by a long shot. The Roman cataphracts were actually unable to charge and were basically just a mediocre phalanx with horses, while medieval European knights were unleashing infantry-destroying charges, kicking asses and taking names, only stopped by awesome huge-ass castles of insane strength and durability that would be single-handedly able to stop the entire Western Roman army from doing anything; after all, castles stopped Mongols.

medieval europe >>>>>>>>>>>>> roman empire

[Loud Whispers]

I won't argue with you there, medieval Europe's castles were dwarf steroids injected into stone. Still, Constantinople was unbroken until the Latins took it, so round about until the Seljuk banter brigade really kicks into swing they were still damn fine. The Byzantine tendency to attack itself whilst itself was under attack didn't help. I wouldn't judge the Byzantine Empire at its weakest as representative of its whole though, before it had retarded/cruel/wasteful Emperors who neglected its military they remained for quite some time the definitive power of Eastern Europe, even with Balkan slavs and Hungarians running about. Also consider that John II Komnenos nearly succeeded in reviving the Byzantine Empire to its former glory (make Rome great again) through siege warfare and shrewd diplomacy - and if he hadn't been abandoned by his Crusader allies (gj guys) he would've retaken the Byzantine lands down to Syria, possibly even beyond, and if he hadn't pricked himself with a poisoned arrow (lol) he might've even been able to stop the Seljuk banter brigade before they turned into Ottoman rape train, allowing for the Byzantine Empire to continue its past of Westabooisation


Also sneaky silk merchants :DDDD

*Could castles have stopped the WRE? They were skilled at breaking hillforts for sure. And the Mongols certainly proved adept at breaking certain impressive Fortresses in Persia

[Loud Whispers]

More entertaining alt history than if Rome didn't fall- what if Stefan Uroš IV Dušan didn't die in 1355?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[redwallzyl]

castles probably wouldn't have been so bad for them to take. you can just wait them out if you need to and they did that many times in the past with other fortified positions.

[Loud Whispers]

castles probably wouldn't have been so bad for them to take. you can just wait them out if you need to and they did that many times in the past with other fortified positions.

Yes, but who runs out of provisions and resolve first. The defenders or attackers? You don't have all day, all season or limitless funds, and the further you press the longer your supplies must travel and you must be pretty confident that whilst you're sitting by your enemy is not planning to strike elsewhere. This is rather well exhibited by the siege of Vienna or 100% of Chinese history. At Vienna, if the Ottobants had taken it, it would have been as if taking a new Alexandria or Bagdhad, a beautiful base from which to launch further expansion into Europe. As it stands though, bitter resistance from German mercenaries, Spanish musketeers, a hasty civilians militia and grim determination was enough to make the invading force halt - itself full of elite Janissaries and 10x the size of the defending force. The longer it went on the more soldiers died of disease, the more soldiers grew discontent with the siege going nowhere, the more the strain of Ottoman logistics began to hurt - and then the onset of Winter approached. The size of the Ottoman army turned from a strength to a disasterous weakness, as water and food began to run out and disease only got worse. Few ways are worse to die than to die of demonic shits, and even the most elite warrior is leveled low by this malevolent runny poo or bloody coughs.
Given that the supplies situation was so dire, the Ottomans wisely decided to give it one last shot in an all-out assault and failing that, go home. Unfortunately Vienna's defenders and defences were too formidable and this did not succeed - and so the army had to retreat through winter, losing even more.

[TD1]

Or it could be like the battle of Rhodes.

Gotta give those knights some credit, though - they knew how to defend. But cannons don't take no for an answer.

[Teneb]

the roman republic was basically a corrupt oligarchy of aristocrats. not really a vary effective governing body.

Only towards the end of the res publica (yes, I am sticking with that), actually. About a century before that, things were actually running along pretty well. When it shifted from "I do this for Rome" to "I do this for me" is when it became real bad. And then Crassus and Pompey decided to march on Rome after dealing with Spartacus and we all know how that turned out (I love Plutarch's description of Caesar's assassination though. "either by chance or because pushed there by his murderers, against the pedestal on which the statue of Pompey stood. And the pedestal was drenched with his blood, so that one might have thought that Pompey himself was presiding over this vengeance upon his enemy, who now lay prostrate at his feet, quivering from a multitude of wounds. For it is said that he received twenty-three; and many of the conspirators were wounded by one another, as they struggled to plant all those blows in one body." Also a friend of Caesar that shared his name with one of his assassins was lynched not long after. Read it!)

"Caesar thus done to death, the senators, although Brutus came forward as if to say something about what had been done, would not wait to hear him, but burst out of doors and fled"

Sic semper tyrannis indeed.

[redwallzyl]

and then they had absolutely no plan on how to restore the republic and promptly fell into civil war. the funny thing was they really didn't disagree with anything Caesar was doing. they were all necessary and great reforms. they were just pissy they were cut out of it. also Caesar really didn't want Pompey to have died in the first place. some Egyptians just did it thinking he would like it and promptly regretted it immensely. Caesar actually really liked Pompey.

the roman republic basically stopped being possible when people stopped believing in it and following its traditions. once the precedent was set that you could ignore rules and tradition if you were powerful enough it was doomed. that and an easily bribeable and or loyal to commanders professional army sealed its fate.

[Orange Wizard]

the roman republic was basically a corrupt oligarchy of aristocrats. not really a vary effective governing body.

Only towards the end of the res publica (yes, I am sticking with that), actually. About a century before that, things were actually running along pretty well. When it shifted from "I do this for Rome" to "I do this for me" is when it became real bad.

This was more to do with a shift in how the Senate was viewed and operated.
In the early-mid republic, magistrates and consuls answered to the Senate (which was effectively a very large directory), and legislation was handled by the plebian council. This worked pretty well, because the Senate was in fact not a very effective governing body, and while their authority could enforced militarily, most of the domestic matters were handled by the plebs.
In the late republic and empire, the plebian council was effectively neutered, the Senate took over legislation, and the Emperor inherited executive powers. This thrust the Senate into a position it was not designed for, and as it happens having a bunch of rich oligarchs and aristocrats deciding the laws is not particularly conducive to much other than feudalism. Successive emperors curbed the Senate's authority to varying degrees, but ultimately the accumulation of wealth at the top brought the whole thing tumbling down.

Overall, in terms of government, republic>empire. The real successes of the Empire were from capable leadership, and under that leadership empire>>>>>>republic.

E: typos

[Loud Whispers]

Thanks Obama


"The people are now staging a sit-in inside parliament. Our legitimate and only demand is to dismiss the government and replace it with an independent cabinet of technocrats."
EU foreign affairs chief Federica Mogherini criticised the protesters' actions, saying it was in the interests of the Iraqi people to restore order rapidly.
"It appears a deliberate disruption of the democratic process," she said in a statement.
The EU is not very self-aware is it

[Morrigi]

In other news the German Minister of Justice, Heiko Maas, was chased off-stage by an angry mob yesterday. The crowd, presumably AfD supporters, repeatedly shouted "traitor", "traitor to the people", "leftist rat", "we are the people", and so on.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-01/get-out-traitor-german-justice-minister-flees-armored-mercedes-after-angry-protester

[Loud Whispers]

hahahahahahaha

[Sergarr]

In other news the German Minister of Justice, Heiko Maas, was chased off-stage by an angry mob yesterday. The crowd, presumably AfD supporters, repeatedly shouted "traitor", "traitor to the people", "leftist rat", "we are the people", and so on.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-01/get-out-traitor-german-justice-minister-flees-armored-mercedes-after-angry-protester

i see our agent network grows stronger

soon we will retake germany back

and through it, the entire european union will be ours

muahahaha i'm so evil

[ChairmanPoo]

In other news the German Minister of Justice, Heiko Maas, was chased off-stage by an angry mob yesterday. The crowd, presumably AfD supporters, repeatedly shouted "traitor", "traitor to the people", "leftist rat", "we are the people", and so on.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-01/get-out-traitor-german-justice-minister-flees-armored-mercedes-after-angry-protester

i see our agent network grows stronger

soon we will retake germany back

and through it, the entire european union will be ours

muahahaha i'm so evil

uh, hail hydra?

[Sergarr]

In other news the German Minister of Justice, Heiko Maas, was chased off-stage by an angry mob yesterday. The crowd, presumably AfD supporters, repeatedly shouted "traitor", "traitor to the people", "leftist rat", "we are the people", and so on.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-01/get-out-traitor-german-justice-minister-flees-armored-mercedes-after-angry-protester

i see our agent network grows stronger

soon we will retake germany back

and through it, the entire european union will be ours

muahahaha i'm so evil

uh, hail hydra?

they thought that Merkel would be a saviour of Europe, the First Paladin to lead the renewed forces of Freedom to battle again

they though that she would save the Outpost of Light, Ukraine, from the onslaught of Eternal Darkness from the East

but the truth is

she was compromised all along

GDR gambit 100% success Eternal Chancellor of Europe Tolkien Was a Seer Saruman == Merkel behold the truth sheeple

oh and if you believe that the rest of the Triumvirate of Europe will intervene fat chance France is already deeply corrupted as well, what with the indefinitely long State of Emergency they currently have, and UK, well, LW knows that UK's central city, the throne of mammona's power, is already under de-facto occupation from our brothers-in-darkness.

even USA, the Spire Citadel of Free Light, is not free from our long-reaching Black Hand, Trump (who's currently almost certainly going to enter the Presidential race) is endorsed by Putin and you know what that means

all hail the Black Hand of Eternal Darkness

nothing will escape our shadow

i'm intentionally being very silly, if you can't tell