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[hector13]

I'm not equating them, I'm asking if it's right to equate them

...and it's not.

The examples you're using to illustrate your point are quite poor, though.

I don't think the law is going to prosecute a kid who pushes their classmate at recess, and distributing genocidal leaflets in a mosque (presumably about killing Muslims?) is not libel, it's hate speech. They shouldn't be treated the same (as pushing old lady and libelous stuff, respectively) because they're not the same thing, which isn't quite the point you were making, I think.

I'm also curious how Helgoland can be conservative and liberal at the same time, but that's a (much) less important point.

[scrdest]

I'm also curious how Helgoland can be conservative and liberal at the same time

Jewish Physics.

[scriver]

There is a law against it, and Böhmermann was aware of that. It would be a great loss to the German Rechtsstaat if there was no legal action, because that would mean putting day-to-day politics above the law. Just ask yourself: Would he be getting the same reaction for calling Obama a banana-lving cotton boy?

If there is such a law against it, I would bet my hat on that it wasn't meant to protect foreign wannabe dictators and oppressors from insults or satire.

I'm also curious how Helgoland can be conservative and liberal at the same time, but that's a (much) less important point.

Outside of America liberals and conservatives are usually counted as two different branches of right-wing. Usually there is quite a bit of overlap.

[Reelya]

Yeah, "both sides of opinion" in the USA are within some pretty darn narrow parameters. You notice this most starkly on foreign policy. e.g. if the debate is on bombing Iran, the the Republican will be like "we should bomb them now" and the Democrat will be like "bombing them now would not be a good idea". Not a "good idea" in terms of US interests mind you, rather than it not being a good idea because it's morally wrong to carry out unilateral bombings.

Another example of how the two American sides are exactly the same when dealing with foreign policy was New York Times articles about Hugo Chavez. They had more verifiable outright lies and right-wing bullshit than a typical FOX News story on Obama, when the subject became Chavez (e.g. blaming Chavez for "high inflation" during his presidency, when in fact his presidency represented a lull in the otherwise-chronic hyperinflation both before him, and after him). So when it's a political enemy of the US ruling class, both American "Conservatives" and "Liberals" use exactly the same tactics. Both represent different factions of the hegemony.

[Helgoland]

There is a law against it, and Böhmermann was aware of that. It would be a great loss to the German Rechtsstaat if there was no legal action, because that would mean putting day-to-day politics above the law. Just ask yourself: Would he be getting the same reaction for calling Obama a banana-lving cotton boy?

If there is such a law against it, I would bet my hat on that it wasn't meant to protect foreign wannabe dictators and oppressors from insults or satire.

Heh, it's actually colloquially known as the 'Shah law'. But fair point - §103 is weird. The usual laws on libel still apply though.

Outside of America liberals and conservatives are usually counted as two different branches of right-wing. Usually there is quite a bit of overlap.

Only if you take 'liberal' to mean 'neo-liberal' - and neo-liberal I am definitely not. Socially liberal fits better, and that's a decidedly left-wing thing. Similarly 'conservative' can mean 'part of the political force usually known as the Conservatives' or 'when in doubt prefers the status quo, is sceptical of abrupt or radical change'. I'm the latter, and definitely not the former.

Not that the 'left' and 'right' categories are sufficient or even adequate to characterize most political positions, but that probably doesn't even need mentioning.

[martinuzz]

The US has announced 'unexpecedly' that they have stationed a classified number of F-22 Raptors at the UK airbase of Lakenheath.
The F-22 Raptor is an advanced stealth fighter, the most advanced airplane currently in use in the USAF.

With this, the US "want to show our continuing effort to fullfill the US' obligations to it's NATO allies", according to the American European Command.
Furthermore, the stationing is meant to "deter all actions that would destabilize the region", referring to the annexation of the Crimea by Russia, and the continued Russian involvement in the conflict in the Ukraine.

How many of the planes, which are made for an air superiority role, exactly have been stationed remains classified. F-22's aren't often stationed outside of the US, although in august last year a few were also stationed in Germany.

Last week, the US already sent 12 F-15s (the predecessor of the F-22) to the Netherlands and Iceland, to "deter further Russian aggression", referring to the numerous probing incursions of Russian fighters and bombers into NATO airspace over the past few years. The F-15s are currently used to aid in the defense of Icelandic airspace. In januari this year, six F-15s were also sent to Finland.

With this last addition, the US have now sent planes to Europe 3 times already in 2016, meaning to give a clear signal to Russia.
The excersises the planes will partake in are part of an operation called 'Atlantic Resolve', which was started by the US and it's allies in response to the Russian annexation of Crimea.

Putin is likely to note this activity. The F22's have been used by the Obama administration as a means of intimidation in Asia and the Middle East.
For example, the F22s were stationed in the UAE, to intimidate Iran back when tensions rose in the conflict about their nuclear program.
Earlier this year F-22s were stationed in Japan, when North Korea detonated a nuclear test device.

The F-22 has been developed during the Cold War by Lockheed Martin, to replace the F-15. Initially, the USAF wanted to buy 750 planes. But technical difficulties and delay increased the plane's cost price much, and eventually the USAF could only afford to buy 195 planes, which cost around 67 billion dollars.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/buitenland/signaal-aan-rusland-vs-stationeren-onverwacht-hypermoderne-f-22-in-europa~a4280684/

[SirQuiamus]

I was just joking about Helgo's reputation as a pickelhaube-wearing catholic liberal conservative, but I'm entirely serious about Erdogan's reputation as a goat-fucking pedophile. Sure, it's baseless low-quality slander, but so what? Legitimate criticism is just as illegal in Turkey, with the slight difference that truthful complaints are always callously ignored by the sultan and his cronies, unlike untrue insults such as the above. Libel is nasty business in ordinary cases, but Erdogan is in no way harmed by the false allegations themselves. The damage to his reputation is caused by his own absurdly disproportionate response, and if stroking the ego of a foreign dictator is necessary for upholding the Rechtsstaat, I say German liberalism has gone awry in ways unforeseen by the guy in my avatar pic.

@hector13: Liberal conservatism is a real term.

[Sinistar]

Wait, so that poem is the thing I read about not while ago?

Today, the Turkish vice-premier Numan Kurtulmus called the poem a "crime against humanity".

More like "crime against satire".

The way I see things, satire is excellent tool of critique, delivering both entertainment and discussion material... if used correctly. Satire is a type of humor that needs special amount of care, more than other types, if you want to keep quality.
Erdogan deserves all the critique we can shove down his throat. That poem? Yeah, well, it was a collection of obscenities made to rhyme in German. It was crude, simplistic and low-brow. A jab. A jab with a pointy, rusted spike dipped in shit. A satire? Hardly.

We must do better. Satire must be such that the target of mockery at worst is left wondering if we are serious or not and at best he/she must revel in our mockery, mistakenly thinking we are singing a praise. Satire is always insulting, but it's always a veiled insult otherwise it's just an insult. And why not just insult Erdogan, even if he deserves it? Because if we want to take the moral high ground, we must show him we are truly smarter than him, not engage in a lowly pub-knife-fight.

That's my stance on this.

It is a tasteless poem. A poem nonetheless. It rhymes, and it has metric (at least the german original version does).
It should fall completely under the freedom of arts. If this guy gets convicted for this, it's a big loss for the german constitutional state.

It's tasteless nonetheless, and infantile. It deserves a lot of criticism. But no legal action.

More or less, yeah. Besides, prosecuting him would fuel both "anti-establishment" right wing and feed into Erdogan's ego. Message must be sent to Böhmermann none the less. He is no John Stewart of poetry. So he should strive to do better.

If I understand you correctly, you want to persecute crimes differently depending on who they hurt. That violates fundamental judicial norms.

would you demand equal punishment for a kid who pushes a classmate during recess and a guy who pushes a frail old lady in a stairwell? ...or someone who distributes genocidal leaflets in a mosque and a guy who insults the ego of megalomaniacal dictator?

your idea of equality before the law is skewed by your conservative catholic liberalism, helgo

Sorry, but I too will have to agree this comparison is a bit off.

What you are describing are different crimes, different situations, different aoutcomes.

What Helgoland is talking about (or so I understand) would be more like:
1. [insert race/religion/social status etc.] kid pushes a classmate during recess
2. [insert different than 1. case race/religion/social status etc.] kid pushes a classmate during recess
... where you would punish kids differently given their "[insert]" differences. Instead you should be punishing them both equally, that's what Helgoland is on about.

[Shadowlord]

I'm also curious how Helgoland can be conservative and liberal at the same time

Jewish Physics.

I understood that reference, but what does Hitler's hatred of Jews crippling the Nazi scientific program have to do with being both liberal and conservative at the same time?

[Jopax]

Actually, challenging him to a pub knife fight would be the perfect solution to the problem. Then you just shank him and be done with the fucker.

Sure it leaves a power vacuum, but hopefully we've learned to deal with those as soon as they come up instead of letting them suck in shit before coalescing(I've always wanted to use this in a proper sentence ) into the likes of ISIS.

[smjjames]

Actually, challenging him to a pub knife fight would be the perfect solution to the problem. Then you just shank him and be done with the fucker.

Sure it leaves a power vacuum, but hopefully we've learned to deal with those as soon as they come up instead of letting them suck in shit before coalescing(I've always wanted to use this in a proper sentence ) into the likes of ISIS.

Wouldn't the line of succession come into effect? Like how the Vice President becomes the President if something happens to the President.

[scrdest]

I'm also curious how Helgoland can be conservative and liberal at the same time

Jewish Physics.

I understood that reference, but what does Hitler's hatred of Jews crippling the Nazi scientific program have to do with being both liberal and conservative at the same time?

Helgo is a Schrodinger's Citizen. Until his views on any specific subject are reviewed, his political leanings are in superposition
^{_{Also it was more of a reference-to-a-reference. I've been reading too much r/polandball lately.}}

[Kot]

Schrodinger's Citizen.

I lel'd.

[martinuzz]

The Dutch government is currently contemplating disowning and renationalizing the railway contractor ProRail, to put an end to chronic overdue maintenance of the tracks, and stop the culture of failing directors getting off with a goodbye bonus of several 100 thousands euros.

It's a step in the right direction. Now let's hope they continue this trend, and disown and renationalize the train service, bus services, landline telephone services, postal office, health insurance, gas and electricity, waterworks, and others, and put an end to the neo con nightmare of selling out every public service to the highest bidder.

[ChairmanPoo]

I wish they did that here
(luckily here they did not quite sell off the national healthcare system wholly because there would have been a riot. THey did try to "externalize" chunks of it though. Also luckily, my home region has enough autonomy to be spared from the more toxic nationwide policies)
THe trend for decades has been for goverments to sell off those assets (often for a pittance). I think it might be reversing due to popular clamor in the last few years. We'll see. I hope that, indeed, what you say is a new trend.