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[martinuzz]

Should be noted too that the dutch implementation prevents non-EU people from working the sex trade, so all people from outside the EU are de facto working illegally.

That'got nothing to do with prostitution, that's just standard EU rules on work visa. I guess it's just much much harder (read: impossible) to get a work visa for selling your body then it is to get visa for harvesting tomatoes.

[Sheb]

Should be noted too that the dutch implementation prevents non-EU people from working the sex trade, so all people from outside the EU are de facto working illegally.

That'got nothing to do with prostitution, that's just standard EU rules on work visa. I guess it's just much much harder (read: impossible) to get a work visa for selling your body then it is to get visa for harvesting tomatoes.

Yeah, but the end results is that a lot of prositutes (a majority of them according to some reports) fall outside of the regulated part of the industry.

[martinuzz]

Yeah, but the end results is that a lot of prositutes (a majority of them according to some reports) fall outside of the regulated part of the industry.

Which brings us back to what I said earlier. This is a Schengen open borders problem, not a legalize prostitution or not problem. Before Schengen, we also had prostitution outside of the regulated part of the industry, but much much less. It was being brought back too, by installing more regulation and control, until the borders opened, after which it became uncombatable, despite legalization and concurrent regulation.

[Sheb]

You got a source for that? I'm interested because I didn't read about that before.

[ChairmanPoo]

I heard most prostitutes are sex workers, but I'm still to find some definite data on the issue. Maybe someone could provide a link?

[Sinistar]

I think it would be better if prostitution was legalized because with certain regulations, health checks etc. it can potentially lead to more safety for everyone involved.

I think we look at the problem at very different angles. As I read your words I see something like this:

I think it would be better if homosexual(group, BDSM, whatever) sex was legalized because with certain regulations, health checks etc. it can potentially lead to more safety for everyone involved.

What happens between consenting adults is not something that government should touch. Whatever they do before, during and after sex is their own matter.


Sex industry may use slavery and rape and it is a different problem.

I... think there might be some misunderstanding between us here?

First of all, a lot of "western" countries don't classify homosexual/bsdm/group etc. sex as illegal activity to begin with (apart from bestiality but that's another matter). So I don't see why this is being discussed here unless we are talking about those countries where homosexual etc. sex is in fact illegal and we are speculating how it would be the best way to make it legal - in this case it seems we have the same opinion, because I too think that casual, consensual sex in general should not be regulated as it is bewteen every responsible adult to be, well, responsible about it.

What I am on about (and perhaps you are too but there's just some misunderstanding, as said) is that paying sex should be regulated. That is, instead of prosecuting it, make it legal because with that the state get's it's share and in return also provides security for people involved in the trade. Someone being exploited by employee is much more likely get a fair trial against said exploitation if he/she is involved in legal business than if it was illegal.
As I said before, this does not mean people in sex industry won't necessarily get exploited. It just means that people who are ok with being involved in sex trade can earn their money legally. Would legalizing sex trade cause exploitations in such trade to raise or decline? That is an interesting question and I'm quite interested in reading that paper Sheb mentioned. But another interesting question would be if not legalizing, how do you make illegal prostitution go away?

Unless you are against paying for sex strictly out of ethical/moral reasons. Which is also an interesting discussion material, but I fear kinda off-topic.

[Sheb]

To me, gun control might be a good analogy for the case to keep prostitution illegal. Plenty of people are responsible gun owners, who just like to have gun. But in Europe, we, by and large, have decided that restricting gun ownership generally would be beneficial because it help reduce the amount of bad stuff done with gun. Likewise, even if there is nothing wrong with prostitution per se (just as there is nothing wrong with responsible gun ownership), we might decide it is better to reduce it anyway.

At this point, I should make clear that I don't really have a clear opinion of what's the best way to regulate it. I'm happy to let different countries experiment with different models.

[Helgoland]

-snip-

Point me to one European country with a complete ban on private gun ownership then.

[Sheb]

You got a point. What if I talk of specific categories of guns though? Why don't we let people that enjoy such a thing fire machine guns?

[Helgoland]

Then your analogy fails, because I can start talking about specific types of prostitution - the banning of some of which may be advisable.

Also I'm not entirely sure that it's impossible for a private citizen to fire a machine-gun - maybe there is such an opportunity at army PR events, I dunno.

[ChairmanPoo]

Then your analogy fails, because I can start talking about specific types of prostitution - the banning of some of which may be advisable.

Also I'm not entirely sure that it's impossible for a private citizen to fire a machine-gun - maybe there is such an opportunity at army PR events, I dunno.

Definitedly possible here at least.

Worth noting as well that in Switzerland IIRC all citizens are supposed to own an assault rifle as part of the military reserve.

[chaoticag]

Also worth pointing out that they had, last I heard anyway, to pass by an armory to get ammo for the assault rifle. So it's kinda a way of controlling things still.

I guess in the sex work analogy it would be as though you could be a prostitute but can't have sex unless called to it by war. This had become a strange analogy.

Wouldn't it be better to talk about possible work safety regulation instead when it comes to sex work? I mean it would be something more directly applicable, and those do impose limits on what can be done on the job.

[Helgoland]

That already is happening. Germany, for example, not requires all johns to wear condoms. Most of the coverage of this policy was speculation on the methods police would use to ensure compliance.

[Morrigi]

Also worth pointing out that they had, last I heard anyway, to pass by an armory to get ammo for the assault rifle. So it's kinda a way of controlling things still.

I guess in the sex work analogy it would be as though you could be a prostitute but can't have sex unless called to it by war. This had become a strange analogy.

Wouldn't it be better to talk about possible work safety regulation instead when it comes to sex work? I mean it would be something more directly applicable, and those do impose limits on what can be done on the job.

Only government-issued ammunition is kept at armories in Switzerland. Commercial ammunition is a thing, and may be stored at home.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

is that paying sex should be regulated. That is, instead of prosecuting it, make it legal because with that the state get's it's share and in return also provides security for people involved in the trade. Someone being exploited by employee is much more likely get a fair trial against said exploitation if he/she is involved in legal business than if it was illegal.

OK, lets look at different types of prostitution and likely effect of treating them like just another business

I'd say there are three major models:

1) Exploitation (drug addicts, illegal migrants, sex slaves and more) : Legalization will do very little, because this kind of model is based on exploitation of girls and low price category. They will stay in shadows because else pimps will have to pay fair salary, taxes, health check fees and more, more, more.

Society need to punish both organizers and clients, because it is nothing but a form of a rape. Even if client didn't know that the prostitute he used is forced to service him. He is a rapist and should be treated like one. Fining is simply not enough

2) Just another kind of work. We have an owner\organizer who gets money from clients and pays salary. Workers are free to leave. It may be a brothel, escort service, strip club with "private dances" or any other model

Only very left or very feminist will call this "exploitation" Legalization does make this scheme more comfortable for clients and owners and may take some clients from category 1 but you need a strict control to filter category 1 that disguises itself as category 2.


3) Self-employed prostitutes
They work for themselves, may pay some money for assistance with finding clients or getting protection.

Legalization (aka you need a license, you need pay taxes...) and so on is BAD for them. I imagine work interview. "Let me see your papers? Hmm... You were a part time prostitute during your college days. Interesting. We will call you later"