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[Sinistar]

Erdogan mildly sad, politely asks evil Germany to stop being mean to him.


But seriously, while Erdogan trying to strongarm his political ego is always troublesome, I find relief there's still some sensible people among EU leaders who be all like "now listen old boy, why don't you take it down a notch, hm?"

If only that happened more often.

[Loud Whispers]

So, I just stumbled on this article about the murder of an Ahmadi Muslim shopkeeper in Glasgow. I was wondering if LW knows anything about it, since well, I had never heard anything of Ahamadi muslims before , probably before they seems to be mostly a South Asian movement and muslims in Belgium are mostly of North African descent.

Popping back to say the storm's not killed me but it's left me with digging to do and timber to replace and yeah this was headline but it's died down rather quickly, with everyone showing sympathy and hashtags but no one addressing the elephant in the room. Business as usual basically, I mean the Guardian's more preoccupied with lambasting Thomas the Tank engine as being a sexist, anti-environmental colonial classist vehicle (no pun intended) for indoctrinating children to be evil straight white men. Presumably the movie coming out (called 'The Great Race') will be a warning on how being respectful to your friends will lead to a slippery railway line down to occupying Alsace-Lorraine.
Best part is of course, who bloody writes the Guardian? Who wrote this? Who started it all, picking a fight with me engines?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

YOU'RE A FUCKING WHITE MALE of course!
Good Lord, there are too many influential international institutions run by self-hating whites and their pandering handlers, I feel someone has to take the knives from their wrists before they cut everyone around them too much or else learn Thomas the tank engine runs down the engine line number 9, not derail across the street ;-;

YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU CUT THE MENTAL HEALTH BUDGET OSBORNE

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS, WHOLE GENERATIONS OF THESE MADCATS RUNNING THE WORLD

NOW WE DON'T EVEN HAVE FICTIONAL TRAINS TO CONSOLE OUR CURRENT TRAINS BEING well, controversial.

This is far more important than being religion of peace'd.

Spoiler: religionthread stuff (click to show/hide)

As for Ahmadiyyah Muslims, they've been in the UK for about hundred years without causing any trouble and were founded by some guy called Ahmad who would otherwise be a pretty average Sunni if he did not differ so largely on how the world becomes dar al-Islam. Instead of expanding via the precedent set against the Sassanids or Byzantines, expand via the precedent set by Evangelical proselytizers or Indian polytheists, by peace, teaching, preaching and example. Also quite unique in that they're a lot like early protestants when it comes to canon, in that they're ok with (even supportive of) translating holy canon and even incorporate the holy canon of other religions into theirs, holding certain other texts to be within their canon (some Jew, Christian, Hindu texts for example. Hindu ones being especially surprising given that they're not people of the book). I am grossly butchering an entire religion's creed with simplification mind you, as there's a lot more to the sect. Also notable in that they believe they should response to critics of Islam in kind, as today's critics attack Islam via the pen, reply via the pen - not the bomb or machete.
And on that note I just realized I'm still sour that the Hebdo murderers won. Or that the refugees who fled persecution to the West are being killed by the perps the West invited. Or that this was all happening in broad daylight and straight white dictators laughed off the consequences everyone but themselves would have to live through, or not, as it is.
This Ahmad believed his message would be especially appealing to the West, which he believed was falling into materialism. Well there's a sage for you, the West falling into materialism, who'd have thunk it. Mostly live on the other side of London though so fuck if I know much else to talk about in detail that just wouldn't be horrendously insulting in its ignorance.

The sect was founded in Qādiān in the Punjab, India, in 1889 by Mīrzā Ghulām Aḥmad (c. 1839–1908), who claimed to be the mahdī (a figure expected by some Muslims at the end of the world), the Christian Messiah, an incarnation of the Hindu god Krishna, and a reappearance (burūz) of Muhammad. The sect’s doctrine is unorthodox in some aspects: for example, it is believed that Jesus feigned death and resurrection but in actuality escaped to India, where he died at the age of 120; also, jihād (“holy war”) is reinterpreted as a battle against unbelievers to be waged by peaceful methods rather than by violent military means.
http://www.britannica.com/topic/Ahmadiyyah

Now these guys got imagination

What does that have to do with the early Christian Protestants? They certainly were not above persecuting religious opponents anymore than the other sects and religions were.

Early Christian protestants were soft and incapable of doing much, seeking to remove big money from the Papacy and stop abuses by the Clergy, wicked Popes, Nuns, Priests and so on. Then, being picked up on the wings of rising nationalism, the Puritans are born, and shit gets TOASTY.
Oh!
Relevant:

I'm reminded of the Italian firebrand priest who upset the Republics of Italy with an uprising. He preached of the decadence of the Republics, the corruption of the Papacy, warnings of foreign invasion (of course all three happened) and preached an austere, strict Catholicism.  He preached that the bible was the sole source of authority on Earth, that poverty was a virtue and that all artworks and books that were not holy should be burned for being sinful distractions. When his prophesy of foreign invasion came true a French army was marching to Naples - this would take them through Florence. Florence itself was undergoing political turmoil and its ruler Piero (recently having taken office) surrendered spinelessly to the French, an affront that caused the Florentines to rebel against Piero themselves. This priest would take control of Florence and Florence would turn from one of the great centres of secular humanism to a book burning theocracy.

Not a Protestant priest mind you, but the mechanisms that made Piero made the Puritans, foreign invaders, domestic decadence and corruption amidst religious turmoil. Later Protestantism had much of the same values as Ottoman Sunni Islam, (though obviously differing on belief and practice, held quite similar values).

For that matter, they [the ahmadis] are hardly the only contemporary muslims making a stand against religious violence.
I just fail to see what suddenly makes them so singular.

Them being a significant community in the UK in the story about Ahmadis being killed in the UK by Salafists for making a stand against Jihad

It's pretty obvious if you don't overlook it

Erdogan mildly sad, politely asks evil Germany to stop being mean to him.
But seriously, while Erdogan trying to strongarm his political ego is always troublesome, I find relief there's still some sensible people among EU leaders who be all like "now listen old boy, why don't you take it down a notch, hm?"
If only that happened more often.

"freedom of the press and freedom of expression... are values the EU cherishes".

Are they serious? Are they gigglin? JUST

Also anyone here think they didn't do this just to piss Erdogan off and make him act rashly?

[smjjames]

Erdogan mildly sad, politely asks evil Germany to stop being mean to him.
But seriously, while Erdogan trying to strongarm his political ego is always troublesome, I find relief there's still some sensible people among EU leaders who be all like "now listen old boy, why don't you take it down a notch, hm?"
If only that happened more often.

"freedom of the press and freedom of expression... are values the EU cherishes".

Are they serious? Are they gigglin? JUST

Also anyone here think they didn't do this just to piss Erdogan off and make him act rashly?

He's just angry that he can't strangle whoever wrote the song and the people singing it.

[Helgoland]

It's not even that great a song - it's just funny because Erdogan reacted like he did.

[Sheb]

Ahah, good old LW's is back, writing a post which contains some nuggets of informations in the midst of a bant where you don't know what to address and what not, what is shitposting and what's not.

[Sheb]

Turkish border guards apparently "shoot to kill" on refugees. Be nice to have some more info on that if anyone has some.

[smjjames]

Apparently they have been doing it, so, yeah. Even the Russians are concerned.

https://news.google.com/news/story?ncl=d2pHSdMN7sKp7tMDves3Mnl4_6IsM&q=turkey+border+guards+refugees&lr=English&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA9MDdg-vLAhUFxGMKHew1Ak8QqgIIKTAA

[Sergarr]

Well, that certainly seems like an, ahem, solution, to the problem of refugees in Europe.

[smjjames]

Not an ethical solution of course.

[Sergarr]

But is is certainly a solution that Europe wants, given how much benefits Turkey is to get in return for "dealing with the refugee problem".

Either that, or European leadership has become extremely dumb, for not realizing the simplest of consequences that actions have.

[Loud Whispers]

Ahah, good old LW's is back, writing a post which contains some nuggets of informations in the midst of a bant where you don't know what to address and what not, what is shitposting and what's not.

Spoiler: Oh God it's multiplying (click to show/hide)

That kid doesn't stand a chance, here's hoping he's at the very least culturally mixed as fuck so he doesn't carry his what you might say, straight white dictator Heritage

The Guardian

Mein sides

Turkish border guards apparently "shoot to kill" on refugees. Be nice to have some more info on that if anyone has some.

With the Kurds building their anti-suicide bomber trench and the Turks having not done so getting suicide bombed by Syrians this seemed inevitable. Should've built their barrier whilst they still could've, instead of trying to project power into Syria.
Anyways I can't see the Times article because paywall but it sounds like they've been given a shoot to kill policy, when that's not what's happening.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/turkey-shooting-dead-syrian-refugees-flee-civil-war-a6960971.html

UK-based monitoring group the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights alleged 16 people seeking sanctuary in Turkey have been shot over the past four months.
They said those killed included three children.
Other examples compiled by the Syrian Observatory include the alleged killings of a man and his child at Ras al-Ain, at the eastern end of the Turkish-Syrian border.
In the west of the country, two refugees were reportedly shot dead at Guvveci on 5 March.
“It’s in all areas. It happens to people coming from Idlib, Aleppo, Isis areas, Kurdish areas,” a  spokesman for the Syrian Observatory told The Independent.

By contrast Turkey has let in 2 million refugees and have been putting up with newEurope everyday.

Well, that certainly seems like an, ahem, solution, to the problem of refugees in Europe.

It will not. The numbers are simply far too low. Unless the Times is secretly misrepresenting this on purpose to make it seem like they have a shoot to kill policy which will cause people walking to Turkey fear.

But is is certainly a solution that Europe wants, given how much benefits Turkey is to get in return for "dealing with the refugee problem".
Either that, or European leadership has become extremely dumb, for not realizing the simplest of consequences that actions have.

European leadership is not stupid, and is highly educated. They merely defer their thinking to others whose agendas do not require them to deal with the consequences of their actions.

[Sheb]

There was that thing in your version of the article LW:

For every migrant deported to Turkey, the EU will take in a Syrian refugee from Turkey, but this number will be capped at 72,000

Should surely calm the nativists around here.

[Sergarr]

72,000 - in total, or per some unspecified period of time? European officials have been known to manipulate the information in that way before, you know, with "tell them the number of migrants arriving per day instead or per year, to quell the stupid unwashed masses public".

Besides, a number like seems like an extremely easy thing to amend in further provisions. Raise the debt ceiling, so to speak.

[Loud Whispers]

There was that thing in your version of the article LW:
For every migrant deported to Turkey, the EU will take in a Syrian refugee from Turkey, but this number will be capped at 72,000
Should surely calm the nativists around here.

It will, because they are narrow minded, forgetting the immediate past and future exist. 72,000 is a meaningless number if it is enforced, if the cap does not also create a deportation limit of 72,000, will not address the migration rate of millions or the West African, Central African or Black Sea routes, or just the simple fact that if the millions rate was magically turned into 72,000 it would still be too much, too little and too late, or the fact that this deal opens the door to Turkish migrants or "Turkish" migrants in such a way that they could not be stopped by Schengen nations unless those nations actively defied Brussels. And I could still appreciate late damage control as there's no such thing as damage control, but this is not that. This is damage control against opposition.

First, readmission. Even if Turkey agrees to accept the rapid return of those crossing from Turkey into Greece, the single biggest practical problem remains one which the EU was familiar with for a long time, but did not address yet seriously: the state of the Greek asylum system.
It is crucial to stress, again and again, that any readmission must happen in accordance with EU and international law on the rights of refugees. As Kenneth Roth from Human Rights Watch put it, each claim should be "given careful consideration."
The problem with this is that this is in fact a meaningless commitment unless it is accompanied by a dramatic strengthening of the ability of the Greek Asylum Service to implement it. In a recent paper (published by Forced Migration Review) in January 2016 Maria Stavropoulou, its director, wrote that:
    "case workers can reasonably be expected to issue no more than a few dozen decisions a month … in a situation, however, where thousands of people arrive every day in a country … these requirements are simply impossible to meet. For instance, the Greek Asylum Service can currently process at most 1,500 applications a month if it wishes to respect all of these requirements – which is less than half of the average daily inflow of refugees on the Greek islands at the time of writing this article."
Some human rights organisations argued that the impossibility of conducting a full review of all individual applications makes any deal with Turkey impossible. In fact, the situation for individual asylum seekers in Greece is even worse if there is no deal at all.
http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=67&newsletter_ID=105

A pointless endeavor in futility? No.

First, the EU and Greek authorities should focus on building up the administrative capacity for determining asylum cases and readmission in accordance with applicable European law. As recently as 24 February the executive director of the European Asylum Support Office, Jose Carreira, stated that "supporting the EU Relocation Scheme is the key priority for EASO operations in Greece." And as late as 10 March, he told EU interior ministers about the need for more personnel to be sent to Greece to work on relocation.
The EU relocation scheme has seen less than 100 people relocated from Greece to the EU per month since last autumn. It should be suspended without further delay. Greece currently has some 260 employees in its Asylum Service. As ESI learned in Athens recently, one quarter of them work on relocation, busy with a program that at best resettles a few hundred people a month. This is, in fact, an irresponsible waste of scarce administrative resources.
The European Commission should put all of its energy into devising ways how Greece can be helped by integrating asylum case workers from other EU member states into its system without delay.

Just the next vehicle which mass immigration can continue amongst European states irregardless of their constituent's wishes. And the deal promises relocation of refugees directly from Turkey, to where again?

Yuropoors do not think about the consequences of their leaders' actions. The Forced Migration Review should change its name back to the Refugee Participation Network. Sounds friendlier.

72,000 - in total, or per some unspecified period of time? European officials have been known to manipulate the information in that way before, you know, with "tell them the number of migrants arriving per day instead or per year, to quell the stupid unwashed masses public".
Besides, a number like seems like an extremely easy thing to amend in further provisions. Raise the debt ceiling, so to speak.

Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany has steadfastly refused to cap the number of legitimate asylum seekers who can enter.
The cap is ultimately meaningless and you can keep applying even if you have been deported from Europe. Priority will be given to those who haven't tried reaching Europe yet. That's irregardless of whether it's 72,000 a day or year.

[Sheb]

Yeah, my though reading that number exactly. Reading this Guardian piece, it's not clear if it per year or overall.

But a cap of 72,000 places has been put on Syrians who will be given asylum in Europe, far short of the 108,000 a year recommended by international aid agencies, if the EU is to do its fair share. The scheme will be stopped once more than 72,000 people have been settled in Europe, amid concerns among some countries of an “open-ended commitment”.

Yeah, I also don't really see Erdogan sticking to his part of the deal once he pocket the euromonies for some reasons. Although from another point of view, if Turkey is deemed a safe country in the process, any asylum seeker whose application is rejected who came via Turkey can then be dumped back there.