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[Dorsidwarf]

And if we keep both borders open, then we don’t have a hard border with the EU which is one of the central reasons for many brexit folks in the first place.

Wrong. You are forgetting the part where there already is, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future, a hard border between Ireland and Schengen.

Wasn’t aware of that, but most of what I’ve seen in terms of the NI border  was customs related rather than immigration related. Is it not in the customs union?

[scriver]

True. I might have mixed them up.

[Loud Whispers]

And if we keep both borders open, then we don’t have a hard border with the EU which is one of the central reasons for many brexit folks in the first place.

Wrong. You are forgetting the part where there already is, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future, a hard border between Ireland and Schengen.

It wouldn't take much political finagling to completely fuck up the current status quo. Worst case scenario for the Leave faction would be if during one of May's intermediary Brexit periods, the UK is "temporarily" entered into the Schengen Area. The ROI have thus far stayed out of the Schengen Area because joining it without the UK would force the UK to impose a hard border between NI & ROI, which has a high risk of breaking the peace, and at the very least pissing everyone off. If the ROI joined the Schengen Area after the UK "temporarily" joined, this would put the UK in a difficult spot, and one our government would use to justify canceling Brexit - though they wouldn't describe as such, insisting we'd left the EU despite being further integrated into the EU. Temporary would become permanent, everyone would be salty with no crispiness, which is a recipe demanding spice.

This is the current arrangement:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Green = Common Travel Area
Blue = Schengen Area
Grey = Dudes who use borders when their governments exist

Green area mandems have minimal border checks with each other, but cooperate to maintain border checks with blue.
Blue area mandems have minimal border checks with each other, but cooperate to maintain border checks with green and grey.
Also green area dudes can permanently live in each other's countries, serve in each other's armed forces, governments, bureaucracies, private sectors and all that without needing any visa, residency or naturalisation.
Blue area dudes can permanently live in each other's countries, work in each other's private sectors without visa/residency/naturalisation, though public sector eligibility requirements still vary from nation to nation on a bilateral basis.

Wasn’t aware of that, but most of what I’ve seen in terms of the NI border  was customs related rather than immigration related. Is it not in the customs union?

UK & ROI are both in the customs union, while the UK government still to this day hasn't made it clear whether it will leave or remain in the customs union. Everyone said we'd leave it, The UK government promised to leave it, insists it will leave it, and yet spend every day concocting plans to lock us in. The communist party of Britain, which I did not realise still existed, called it amusingly when they said the Chequers plan was the single market by another name.

[smjjames]

I still don’t get how anyone involved in brexit imagines that the Ireland problem is going to be solved with their hard border to the EU requirement combined with their no border to NI requirement with NI’s no border to Ireland requirement. Like whenever the issue comes up people immediately change the topic or say “something will be worked out” even though nobody seems willing to back down on any of those 3 requirements

If we put a border crossing into NI and keep the NI/Ireland border open, then the DUP will abandon the tories, leaving a minority government that will have trouble doing much, and probbably reignite NI independence movements.

If we keep the NI -> mainland Uk open and close the Irish border, apparently that will lead to terrorism for Irish reasons that I do not fully understand.

And if we keep both borders open, then we don’t have a hard border with the EU which is one of the central reasons for many brexit folks in the first place.

I just don’t see how this can get solved, honestly

The thing is that the Good Friday Agreement was made in the environment of the EU (possibly with the expectation of staying in the EU forever, I wouldn't know) with the freedom of movement and all that. Without that environment or perhaps, base, the whole deal is on shaky ground so to speak, it might stay up, it might partially slump, or it might collapse completely.

Any change in the base foundation or evironment is going to affect the GFD no matter what, there's just no way around it. Which is why it's such a third rail in British politics and they're trying as hard as possible to not change anything despite Brexit meaning there is going to be a change regardless.

Whether it'd be just as much of a third rail to a negotiator who is actually a Leaver as it has been for Theresa May, I wouldn't know.

[TD1]

It was "made in the environment of the EU" only in that both the UK and Republic of Ireland were in Europe at the time. But it is an agreement, voted on both in N.I. and the Republic of Ireland, which is between the two nations, and does not involve the EU.
The "whole base" was not Europe and free movement, it was disarmament and a cessation to the constant brutal slaughter that was its base. So long as that base is upheld, I sincerely doubt whether people will let the peace process "slump," as you put it. The wounds of the Troubles are still fresh - no one spoils for a second fight, even the IRA vipers in Sinn Fein.

[smjjames]

Well, they're certainly acting like any change resulting from Brexit is going to mean death for the agreement.... At least that's how I'm interpreting it, and possibly how dorsidwarf is interpreting it as well.

[TD1]

Yea, I'm sure some people would like to push that.

In reality, I don't recall the Good Friday Agreement really mentioning a border at all. There are parliamentary links to be retained, the promise of a potential United Ireland provided there's a majority for it in both RoI and NI.

A border might make some commitments such as cross-border relations more difficult, but it doesn't damage any of the central pillars of the agreement.

[smjjames]

Yeah, I read the GFD a while back and there was barely anything economic related at all, maybe a paragraph at most, just a few sentences. And yet the UK, ROI, and NI (and possibly the EU, if they are even factoring it) are acting like it'll damage the agreement or they're using the agreement as a pretext to stonewalling what they're stonewalling about.

[TD1]

"Pretext" is a good word for it, yes.

[smjjames]

Took a look back at it through wikipedia and while there is a section on economics, it mostly boils down to 'respect Irish language and culture, pls no oppress' and the only time a border was mentioned outside of cross-border cooperation is a reference to regional development strategy.

There is no mention of anything relating to not having a border between the UK and NI, all other border references are about establishing cross-border cooperation. So, really, it appears to have all the bases covered as far as having a border between NI and UK.

I can get the UK treating a border between the UK and NI as giving up a chunk of territory (I'd fight tooth and nail for any territory I have left if I once had an empire too, though there was kind of a collective shrug at Scotland. I suppose it's the difference between choosing to leave vs being forced) to the EU and fighting against that, but is that mostly a Remainer sentiment or do Leavers care similarily?

They COULD ask the British people whether they'd be okay with it, but given how much of a third rail it is.....

[Loud Whispers]

Yea, I'm sure some people would like to push that.

In reality, I don't recall the Good Friday Agreement really mentioning a border at all. There are parliamentary links to be retained, the promise of a potential United Ireland provided there's a majority for it in both RoI and NI.

A border might make some commitments such as cross-border relations more difficult, but it doesn't damage any of the central pillars of the agreement.

Lord Bew in the HOL is live right now giving a speech about how the backstop violates all the core principles of the Good Friday agreement. Tl;dr of his criticism is that the Good Friday agreement was proposed from the bottom up, whilst the backstop is imposed from the top down. I'd post more but I must go eat nandos now

[TD1]

They COULD ask the British people whether they'd be okay with it, but given how much of a third rail it is.....

To be frank, I'd never take an issue concerning Northern Ireland to the rotUK. Where there is not complete and utter baffling ignorance, there is a desire to jettison us among the political elite.

I must go eat nandos now

Truly a trial of breathtaking cruelty.

[scriver]

I still don't know what a nandos is or why it is cheeky

[TD1]

Nandos is chicken chips and various sauces as a form of fast food yet in a fairly clean restaurant not reminiscent of McDs.

It is cheeky because it is both expensive and unhealthy. You know you ought not do it, but when your friend says "want a cheeky Nandos?" the urge to cheekify intensifies.

[ChairmanPoo]

Nandos is utterly toxic. The only good thing about it is that the rest of the similarly priced British food places are arguably worse.
Also fairly clean is relative. I got food poisoning at Nandos. Although to be fair IMO part of the problem is how they prepare the chicken actually. See, they marinate the chicken for a while in their sauces before frying it, and I think that's not such a good idea with poultry.

Chicken also tends to be dry and a bit tasteless, but if you use enough peri sauce it will burn with the heat of a thousand suns and by the time your tongue has stopped being numb it will already be in your stomach