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[Loud Whispers]

I approach all of those debates with the understanding that we don't really matter. It's not like you will change UK's fate, and I won't change France's, so in the end we better be friends because no matter our disagreements, things will follow their course in the end.

I usually use the lower board debates as means, not an ends. Like an angle grinder with which to sharpen thoughts, notions & arguments, stripping them of their errors and flaws. I also hold everything to matter, especially since history is full of thousand year reigns of sectarian warfare starting off from irrelevant bullshit no one cared about - until it was too late. Or in the poem:

For want of a nail the horseshoe was lost.
For want of a horseshoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the war was lost.
For want of a victory the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

The actions of our nations are the aggregate of our own selves, we are no less relevant to the fate of our nations than cells would be to our own bodies - just as the great body of a human can be undone by a mote as tiny as a virus, or preserved by the concert of so many cells. That's before factoring in the myriad practical ways each of us affect the state by acting in our own right - and I'm not talking politics, I'm talking about personal life actions, like receiving education, founding families, what we teach and pass down. Most of all, many of us have the opportunities to impact things directly, and often with outsized influence comparative to the average individual of our countries. Right now the British government for example balances on the razor's edge of a few Northern Ireland MPs, all of this would not be possible if the individuals of the four main electorates had not willed the situation thus. Others may be even more directly capable of impacting the course of the world, through holding posts of influence in the private, public or military spheres of life - I don't know much about you, but it sounds like your work with the commission for example has allowed you to improve France's future firsthand, while anyone who knows someone important likewise affects the world thus. Most of all; behind every Alexander was a Philip, behind every Philip was an Amyntas. The most influential are not created from nothing!

We're just monkeys yelling on a rock drifting through space, shit doesn't really matter

The uniqueness of this instant in time and this place in space holding a cooperative set of self-aware matter is a facet of existence I find too interesting to disregard

[TD1]

A small and mostly irrelevant point, but my education in classics compels me:
I've often thought Philip's actions were the truly impressive ones. He united Greece (minus Sparta, but they were so boeotian'd out that they were practically useless). He then forged them into a javelin to strike into the heart of Persia and.... died.
His son picked up the javelin his father forged, and threw it for him. Threw it well, threw it with accuracy - but no more than his father could have done.

[Loud Whispers]

A small and mostly irrelevant point, but my education in classics compels me:
I've often thought Philip's actions were the truly impressive ones. He united Greece (minus Sparta, but they were so boeotian'd out that they were practically useless). He then forged them into a javelin to strike into the heart of Persia and.... died.
His son picked up the javelin his father forged, and threw it for him. Threw it well, threw it with accuracy - but no more than his father could have done.

Alexander also couldn't have done it without Philip's soldiers, officers and tutelage from Aristotle

In a completely related note, anyone here have good ideas for wedding gifts between a Russian and a Briton? I am trying my best to find something which is historical, affordable enough and isn't covered in Ivan the Terrible

[TD1]

Hey, you could even argue he couldn't have done it without Homer. It's said he read a portion each day on his campaigns.

As for the gift, everything I can think of involves tasteless cultural and historical references. Sorry.

[hector13]

Not a bottle of perfume.

[Cathar]

I approach all of those debates with the understanding that we don't really matter. It's not like you will change UK's fate, and I won't change France's, so in the end we better be friends because no matter our disagreements, things will follow their course in the end.

I usually use the lower board debates as means, not an ends. Like an angle grinder with which to sharpen thoughts, notions & arguments, stripping them of their errors and flaws. I also hold everything to matter, especially since history is full of thousand year reigns of sectarian warfare starting off from irrelevant bullshit no one cared about - until it was too late. Or in the poem:

For want of a nail the horseshoe was lost.
For want of a horseshoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the war was lost.
For want of a victory the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

I have another poem :

Let go
Of the ego
My bro

-Cathar 07.12.18

I let you meditate on the deepness of that influential poet of the 21th century

I mean it is an illness of our times, to have us believe that we are special in some way and that we matter. We think we have the world figured out, and suddently you see the daughter of a litteral traitror rise in your country and have people around you starting to argue that somewhat, that chick who lives in a castle represents the people and you realize how meaningless your opinion is.

The good new is, you can act and get involved in the standardization process. If you are an expert in a field, or if you are an informed consumer and are representing a consumer group, you can get in relation with your national standardization institution and have your voice heard.

This is where decisions are made. They are not made, even in europe, by oligarchal elites, they are made by people who get involved. You can contact a representative consumer group and do just that : they are often lacking people to send to the meetings. It's a lot of work and you'll have to sit next to specialist who know their shit to the fingertips, but that's how decisions are made, with or without europe.

In France it's the AFNOR in which I had one of the most exciting times in my life.

Don't let the pressure of agitated people in the streets court-circuit a fair decision making process, that's how you end up with lead in kid toys. And since you won't have EU standards to force your industry to minimal standards, they *will* want to lower them as much as they can to reduce the cost of production. Don't let this happen and get your consumer groups involved.

I mean, for real. It doesn't matter to us, UK will be forced to comply to our standards if they want to sell to us. But they will not have to comply to anything but their own rules if they want to sell to british people. If I were a brit, that's the abyss what I would look into until it stares back

[Loud Whispers]

Hey, you could even argue he couldn't have done it without Homer. It's said he read a portion each day on his campaigns.

Or Xenophon, whose campaign through Persia was used by Alexander as a guidebook and a source of inspiration. Xenophon also being a student of Socrates, who taught Plato, who taught Aristotle, who taught Alexander links them altogether too. But Xenophon wouldn't have done it without Cyrus, nor Cyrus were it for his brother Ataxerxes, and both Cyrus and Ataxerxes had imperial ambitions owing to them having to live up to the legacies of the legendary Cyrus the Great and Xerxes aaaaand it just goes on. Tiny people make for terrifying ripples through history. Like the time when Diogenes IRL shitposted at Alexander

As for the gift, everything I can think of involves tasteless cultural and historical references. Sorry.

I have thus far ruled out Saint Olga of Kiev related icons and anything to do with the English Muscovy Company. And booze. Alas, the perils of being poor

I have another poem :
Let go
Of the ego
My bro
-Cathar 07.12.18

It is good; Life goes on.
I eat food. I sing song.
Melancholy wine, with you I dine.
To appreciate the time,
Because the present is a present,
The only time that's mine!

I mean it is an illness of our times, to have us believe that we are special in some way and that we matter. We think we have the world figured out, and suddently you see the daughter of a litteral traitror rise in your country and have people around you starting to argue that somewhat, that chick who lives in a castle represents the people and you realize how meaningless your opinion is.

I do not believe I am special, nor that the sense of self is little more than an illusion. I know I know little, what I thought was so is not so, what is now is not. So when I speak of such notions as mattering, I speak so out of appreciation for even the merest speck of dirt in this cosmos being capable of understanding and appreciating whatever existence is. I do not know why existence is, but we are here, so we ought to be grateful for the flicker of time that we've noticed it

The good new is, you can act and get involved in the standardization process. If you are an expert in a field, or if you are an informed consumer and are representing a consumer group, you can get in relation with your national standardization institution and have your voice heard.
This is where decisions are made. They are not made, even in europe, by oligarchal elites, they are made by people who get involved. You can contact a representative consumer group and do just that : they are often lacking people to send to the meetings. It's a lot of work and you'll have to sit next to specialist who know their shit to the fingertips, but that's how decisions are made, with or without europe.
In France it's the AFNOR in which I had one of the most exciting times in my life.

Could you elaborate more? I know very little about this and it sounds pretty interesting

Don't let the pressure of agitated people in the streets court-circuit a fair decision making process, that's how you end up with lead in kid toys. And since you won't have EU standards to force your industry to minimal standards, they *will* want to lower them as much as they can to reduce the cost of production. Don't let this happen and get your consumer groups involved.

I look forward to the day when I can spend every ounce of energy complaining about the UK again

*EDIT
The Eiffel Tower in Paris is to close on Saturday amid fears of further street violence from "yellow vest" anti-government protests.
Across France, 89,000 police officers will be on duty and armoured vehicles will be deployed in the capital, Prime Minister Edouard Philippe announced.
Protests over, everyone go home.

Jezza vs May debate canceled, to be replaced by a debate between 3 Remainers and 1 Leaver, stealing the BBC's format. Disappointing tbh, just get the two on twitch and livestream the debate, why go through all the TV show politics

[Cathar]

It is good; Life goes on.
I eat food. I sing song.
Melancholy wine, with you I dine.
To appreciate the time,
Because the present is a present,
The only time that's mine!

Mcdonald advertizes on TV
I'm driven by unsatiable hunger
When that chick look at her hamburger
And seems to find it really funny

Could you elaborate more? I know very little about this and it sounds pretty interesting

To cut a long story short :

Every country has its own standardization system. Typically what it does is, it reunites around the same table the industrials of a given industry in what we call a "commission" where they set the rules for the national industry.

For exemple, I had a commission on whiteware in which it was decided that, barren some exceptions, glass windows in shower items would have to be made of tremped glass, so as when they break, they don't harm or kill the user. People invited are typically paid by the industry and representative of the state, but they can be representative of consumer groups if the consumer groups make the demand and send someone, and this point is important.

Now, on the european level, what is typically done is, we take the most economically viable standard in the litterature written on a national level, then we ask different countries for their objections/anotations/commentary etc. It is a long process. But when it is done, bam, you have an european standard, and all european countries have to abide by it. By this process we can infer that the norm is within the production capacity of member states.

So let's say a chinese industrial want to sell showers with glass windows in europe, they have to undertake the extra cost of tremping their glass windows to make them safe, or forget about the european market. This notably prevents dumping, and even if they try to dump, they will not kill consumers by selling cheap items that break into large shards after three months. This are the "regulations" you see the Brexit movie complain about.

Now, UK leaves the EU. What it means is, within UK, the industrial are free of the minimal EU standards. So let's say the whiteware industrt reunites itself and says "okay, fuck it, let's decide we sell dangerous trash to british citizens", now they can. They can change the standards at their leisure. Now they have free hands and you can only rely on your consumer groups to act as a counter power.

I know they haven't told you that during the campaign I feel a bit of despair about it

[TD1]

Hey, you could even argue he couldn't have done it without Homer. It's said he read a portion each day on his campaigns.

Or Xenophon, whose campaign through Persia was used by Alexander as a guidebook and a source of inspiration. Xenophon also being a student of Socrates, who taught Plato, who taught Aristotle, who taught Alexander links them altogether too. But Xenophon wouldn't have done it without Cyrus, nor Cyrus were it for his brother Ataxerxes, and both Cyrus and Ataxerxes had imperial ambitions owing to them having to live up to the legacies of the legendary Cyrus the Great and Xerxes aaaaand it just goes on. Tiny people make for terrifying ripples through history. Like the time when Diogenes IRL shitposted at Alexander

I prefer Demosthenes' Phillipics. His 'On the Crown' was hilariously good.
Also, didn't know that the Hellenica was a model for Alexander, though makes sense. Also, technically Xenophon cooooould have done it without Cyrus. Perhaps they wouldn't have penetrated so far into the interior, nor have to trek all the way out, but when they reached Greece they didn't exactly go home anyway. They mercenaried away in Persia again for gold. So Cyrus was a good reason, but other reasons could have cropped up.... had they the coin.

 

[Loud Whispers]

Mcdonald advertizes on TV
I'm driven by unsatiable hunger
When that chick look at her hamburger
And seems to find it really funny

Man can't understand,
Why in so many adverts,
The salad makes jokes

Now, UK leaves the EU. What it means is, within UK, the industrial are free of the minimal EU standards. So let's say the whiteware industrt reunites itself and says "okay, fuck it, let's decide we sell dangerous trash to british citizens", now they can. They can change the standards at their leisure. Now they have free hands and you can only rely on your consumer groups to act as a counter power.
I know they haven't told you that during the campaign I feel a bit of despair about it

If the BSI can formulate European standardisation, it stands to reason they can be repurposed to formulate it on the national level instead of the continental. Otherwise thanks for the elaboration, it was highly informative

I prefer Demosthenes' Phillipics. His 'On the Crown' was hilariously good.
Also, didn't know that the Hellenica was a model for Alexander, though makes sense. Also, technically Xenophon cooooould have done it without Cyrus. Perhaps they wouldn't have penetrated so far into the interior, nor have to trek all the way out, but when they reached Greece they didn't exactly go home anyway. They mercenaried away in Persia again for gold. So Cyrus was a good reason, but other reasons could have cropped up.... had they the coin.

Xenophon and the other Greeks had no reason to invade Persia without Cyrus. How he does it is bloody hilarious too; he ropes in his old m8 Clearchus, a Spartan general who was exiled from Sparta for being too war-hungry, which really tells you all you need to know about him. Then he gives a great big call for recruits, so Greeks everywhere volunteer to join the expeditionary force in what they believe is just Cyrus putting down a small rebellion. Xenophon goes to join the expedition just to meet Cyrus, he doesn't intend to volunteer to join the armed ranks of Greek adventurers. However half way into Asia Minor, Cyrus drops the bomb shell on them and tells the 10,000 Greeks assembled that they're actually going to war with Ataxerxes on his home turf. A bunch of the host breaks off believing Cyrus to be on a suicide mission, but they get hopelessly lost without Cyrus's guides to lead them back to Greece, and eventually rejoin the host after Cyrus gives a great big speech about making them all satraps once they win, and how victory was likely. Shenanigens ensue; Xenophon goes from being a tourist to the overall commander of the Greek forces. Xenophon was also pretty damn salty that they made it so close to Greece before they all started going AWOL

[TD1]

"Shenanigans"

I like your word for "total and utter defeat resulting in Cyrus' death"

The Anabasis is fun too. So much eating of random things (which goes as well as one might expect) and robbing the natives.

[Loud Whispers]

"Shenanigans"

I like your word for "total and utter defeat resulting in Cyrus' death"

A bit of that + "total decapitation of the entire Greek leadership in one night"

The Anabasis is fun too. So much eating of random things (which goes as well as one might expect) and robbing the natives.

That one bit always breaks my heart. When Cyrus gets shenanigensed and Ataxerxes forces the Greeks to march through the towns which threw in their lot with Cyrus... Meaning the army had to choose between starving to death, or raiding the towns that supported them. It's politically ingenious, but so cruel. You can just imagine the moment where the town folk were happy to see the Greeks returning, and then they weren't

[TD1]

We no longer need to imagine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bPbhCWtZmM

[Dorsidwarf]

I still don’t get how anyone involved in brexit imagines that the Ireland problem is going to be solved with their hard border to the EU requirement combined with their no border to NI requirement with NI’s no border to Ireland requirement. Like whenever the issue comes up people immediately change the topic or say “something will be worked out” even though nobody seems willing to back down on any of those 3 requirements

If we put a border crossing into NI and keep the NI/Ireland border open, then the DUP will abandon the tories, leaving a minority government that will have trouble doing much, and probbably reignite NI independence movements.

If we keep the NI -> mainland Uk open and close the Irish border, apparently that will lead to terrorism for Irish reasons that I do not fully understand.

And if we keep both borders open, then we don’t have a hard border with the EU which is one of the central reasons for many brexit folks in the first place.

I just don’t see how this can get solved, honestly

[scriver]

And if we keep both borders open, then we don’t have a hard border with the EU which is one of the central reasons for many brexit folks in the first place.

Wrong. You are forgetting the part where there already is, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future, a hard border between Ireland and Schengen.