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[martinuzz]

Saying that treaties should be open to amendment is something completely different than saying you don't give a fuck about them.

EDIT: in other news, it looks like the government crisis in Finland has been resolved. The populist government party has been forced by PM Juha Sipilä to split into two seperate parties. One party, New Alternative, will stay on as government party, with 20 of the original 37 members of parliament, the other 17, more extreme-right members will become an opposition party, keeping the party's name Finland Party.
With this, the government keeps it's majority in parliament and the crisis is averted.

PM Sipilä had threatened to blow up the coalition government, after Finland Party chose the extreme-right Jussi Halla-aho as their new party leader (he has been convicted for hate-speech against islam, and is infamous for claiming that Somalians have a special gene that makes them into thieves).

[ChairmanPoo]

Does anybody else feel that this line of discussion is going to result in bans in the near future?

[smjjames]

Does anybody else feel that this line of discussion is going to result in bans in the near future?

Which line of discussion?

Though the whole thing on what to do with the refugees, especially the ones coming in by boat, since they have to be rescued so much, is certainly a politically and ethically difficult problem to solve with no easy solution.

And of course, with the situation in Libya, you'd have to ask yourself if it's ethical to send them back. They're refugees for a reason.

[scriver]

They primarily aren't from Libya, smj.

[smjjames]

I know, Libya was just the particular example pwnzerfaust used.

If the best solution was as simple as just sending them back to Libya or wherever, but it isn't that simple. I believe pwnzerfaust is American, right? At least his location says so. So, it'll be colored somewhat by our experience with immigration. Not giving an excuse or blame or anything, just providing a point of perspective.

[Pwnzerfaust]

German-American dual citizen.

Their primary transit point, recently, is Libya. Even if their original point of origin is usually further south (or as far away as Bangladesh!). Therefore it is best to drop them off where they jumped off in an attempt to reach Europe.

[Erkki]

Saying that treaties should be open to amendment is something completely different than saying you don't give a fuck about them.

EDIT: in other news, it looks like the government crisis in Finland has been resolved. The populist government party has been forced by PM Juha Sipilä to split into two seperate parties. One party, New Alternative, will stay on as government party, with 20 of the original 37 members of parliament, the other 17, more extreme-right members will become an opposition party, keeping the party's name Finland Party.
With this, the government keeps it's majority in parliament and the crisis is averted.

PM Sipilä had threatened to blow up the coalition government, after Finland Party chose the extreme-right Jussi Halla-aho as their new party leader (he has been convicted for hate-speech against islam, and is infamous for claiming that Somalians have a special gene that makes them into thieves).

Not true. They split themselves. The previous leaders of the Finns party lost power so all the ministers and some more departed and formed their own group. Theres a lot still going on but information has already been surfacing that this was planned months ago.

Jussi Halla-aho also is "extreme right" to left wing populists and journalists mostly, and what you quoted is incorrect. He simply quoted a local newspaper in his blog. It is very unfortunate that we too, supposedly the least corrupt country in the world, have political convictions.

[smjjames]

Libya makes sense as a crossing point because within the Mediterranean, it's the area which is closest to land. It's a relatively quick hop from there to Sicily and then Italy, or just straight to Italy. There's also Morocco and Spain.

The thing though is that in doing so, you'd be offloading the refugee problem to Libya, and I doubt they're particularily well prepared to handle loads of them, nevermind the fact that one government doesn't control the entire coastline. There's also the matter of whether Italy can logistically do it since Italy is the main point of arrival I believe.

[da_nang]

Libya makes sense as a crossing point because within the Mediterranean, it's the area which is closest to land.

Tunisia begs to differ.

[smjjames]

Libya makes sense as a crossing point because within the Mediterranean, it's the area which is closest to land.

Tunisia begs to differ.

Whoops, yeah you're right, I was sort of wandering off with my thought there in the post. Wonder why Libya is the port of choice for the refugees to leave at then.

[Pwnzerfaust]

Libya makes sense as a crossing point because within the Mediterranean, it's the area which is closest to land. It's a relatively quick hop from there to Sicily and then Italy, or just straight to Italy. There's also Morocco and Spain.

The thing though is that in doing so, you'd be offloading the refugee problem to Libya, and I doubt they're particularily well prepared to handle loads of them, nevermind the fact that one government doesn't control the entire coastline. There's also the matter of whether Italy can logistically do it since Italy is the main point of arrival I believe.

Majority of the people crossing from Libya aren't properly refugees, anyway. They're opportunistic illegal economic migrants and have no right to be in Libya, much less Europe.

[ChairmanPoo]

The question is not whether they have a right to be in Europe or not. They are coming. They're not going to stop coming just because you threaten to put them into concentration camps in Lybia (which would require Lybian acquiescence, btw). They're already risking life and limb to cross the Atlantic//Mediterranean.

There are no easy solutions to this conundrum.

[scriver]

Libya makes sense as a crossing point because within the Mediterranean, it's the area which is closest to land.

Tunisia begs to differ.

Whoops, yeah you're right, I was sort of wandering off with my thought there in the post. Wonder why Libya is the port of choice for the refugees to leave at then.

Because it has no law and the people who bring them over are criminals.

[Erkki]

Then, to secure its advantages and future of liberal, democratic, prosperous way of living, Europe should go to war.

[smjjames]

The question is not whether they have a "right" to be in Europe or not. They are coming. They're not going to stop coming just because you threaten to put them into concentration camps in Lybia (which would require Lybian acquiescence, btw). They're already risking life and limb to cross the Atlantic//Mediterranean.

I think he meant refugee camps, not the concentration type.

And complicating Libya is that you don't have a central government controlling the entire country. There is one internationally recognized government, but you'd have to deal with the other one which controls about half of the Libyan coast.

Sending them back to their port of origin is what the law says, but as Chairmanpoo said, it's not going to stop them from coming or trying to take some other route.

@erkki: I get that you're joking, but it's not really something to joke about. Not in a joke-about-it-and-get-banned sort of way, just in a this-is-a-serious-thing way.