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[smjjames]

Yeah, there's actually plenty of immigrants who would normally be right leaning, or conservative, if you will, it's just that the Right chose to alienate them.

[Grim Portent]

I'd personally argue that the inclusion of Islam into the left was, in the United States at least, was a part of the pushback against the backlash against Muslims in the wake of 9/11. Before that, they tended much more towards the right, and usually went pretty reliably for the Republicans.

That would make sense. Similar to how Latinos in America are pushed away from the Republicans by anti-immigrant rhetoric despite very frequently being socially conservative Catholics. Pre 9/11 I imagine there wasn't a lot of anti-Islam language getting thrown around.

A quick flick through some statistics inclines me to think Muslims in the UK have trended towards Labour, but I can't find a good break down on the numbers going into the past. Seems like the only non-Christians who tend towards Conservatives in the UK are Jews though, which is hardly surprising given that they tend to be socially conservative.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

TempAcc: A nice summary. Everyone was in such a rush to shit on their own culture and past for its flaws, without realising that there was a hell of a lot more value there then they'd ever realised.

All the blue-haired dragon-kin demi-girls hated things like tradition, or the Church, because those things said they were wrong, so they tore them down - not realising that those things were a bulwark against much more serious threats.

Grim: 'Appropriated by the financial elite' is a good way to put it. The old left fought for the working class. The new left fights for its paymasters, while distracting everyone with guff about transgender bathrooms or 'mansplaining'.

I'd more argue that at some point the left disintegrated into a bunch of factions each with their own issue that as far as they're concerned is the most important thing in the world, many of whom are directly opposed to each other and largely sharing few values other than "Is not right-wing or centrist(the modern-day dirty word in politics)".
I personally think the reason the left is weak these days is because it isn't about strength in unity any more, but rather about individualism and self-expression. These are lovely ideals but they sure as hell dont make for a united political front.

---
E:  "All the blue-haired dragon-kin demi-girls hated things like tradition, or the Church, because those things said they were wrong, so they tore them down"
The newest generation always rejects the stability of its forefathers for adventurism in some degree (see: Islamic kids from well-adjusted families declaring jihad, renouncing their parents and adopted culture and fleeing to Syria). Also internet tumblrites didn't tear down tradition and the church, since they didn't arrive for 30-40 years afterwards.

I'd say the left was thwarted by anti-communism, COINTELPRO, deathsquads, an all that. People confused Soviet Communism with communism.

[Vilanat]

A quick flick through some statistics inclines me to think Muslims in the UK have trended towards Labour, but I can't find a good break down on the numbers going into the past. Seems like the only non-Christians who tend towards Conservatives in the UK are Jews though, which is hardly surprising given that they tend to be socially conservative.

Source?

[scriver]

Me thinks the problem is far from being an economic issue alone. Look at the main course for today's islamization issue, sweden. Sweden had and still has one of the highest standards of living and succesful welfare states of the recent years, with high wages and government programs that helped people with education, housing, healthcare, etc, and yet it has HUGE youth suicide rates. And as much as people might cry about it, sweden is the last place on europe were you'd find a society dominated by "conservative christian rethoric". In fact, if there was such a thing in sweden, then it wouldn't be in the fucking swamp its currently sinking in, at least not in regards to illegal immigrants and islam taking their children away.

People threw away their sense of responsibility with society and cultural identity. They emptied themselves and their children expecting this to open the doors to ultimate freedom, and instead it only made them empty and lonely. They've surrounded themselves with bland, safe, placid lives of no expectations and few responsibilities. They threw their religion away because they though it restricted them rather than make them question themselves, they threw their culture away because they were too lazy to learn about it, they threw their family away because it made them unconfortable at times, so when someone with a strong message, regardless of how insane it is, comes and opens their doors to these people, said people grab onto it, because it gives them something they didn't have in their confort zones: a sense of purpose. Whats worse, society has arranged a system that prevents people from speaking out against said strong message, because its racist and islamophobic to do so, even if clerics go around in the streets telling people what they should and shouldn't do and advocate violence to nonbelievers.

In being too tolerant, people have become tolerant of intolerance.

Families today are feeble arrangements of people who demand love from one another without demanding respect first, where parents are distant because they have to both work and leave their children at school and at home because they are too exhausted to do anything about it when they're not working. That is, if people even have more than one child because this is europe we're talking about, lel.

Thats how your swedish dudeweed bisexual neighbor who faps to /d/ becomes al swedi the decapitator.

Sure, your circle of internet friends may make fun of your catholic neighbor and his housewive wife, who goes to mass, waves a flag during national holidays and ocasionaly hunts and eats a deer or two, but when push comes to shove, its him who's gonna be keeping his family safe and not taking underage concubines and shooting his brothers in the head because hassan the machete jihadist told him to do so.

You don't seem to know as much about Swedish history and the development of societal culture as you think you do. You probably shouldn't speak with such certainty when all it does is reveal your own misunderstandings and misgivings about both past and present


[author=Covenant link=topic=155469.msg7315744#msg7315744 date=1483571464]
TempAcc: A nice summary. Everyone was in such a rush to shit on their own culture and past for its flaws, without realising that there was a hell of a lot more value there then they'd ever realised.

All the blue-haired dragon-kin demi-girls hated things like tradition, or the Church, because those things said they were wrong, so they tore them down - not realising that those things were a bulwark against much more serious threats.

Grim: 'Appropriated by the financial elite' is a good way to put it. The old left fought for the working class. The new left fights for its paymasters, while distracting everyone with guff about transgender bathrooms or 'mansplaining'.[/quote]

Are you saying that the tumbler opinionist crowd have access to time travel technology? Or, if not, how else are you proposing they'd able to cause effects before they even existed?

[Shub-Nullgurath]

That actually seems more like the problem of progressive policies being appropriated by the financial elite. Things like the reduction of religion in politics, gay rights, women's equality, race rights and the like were closely tied with pro-working class movements that wanted to redistribute wealth and extend social safety nets.

That's not hoe the world works.

You can't have the results of your actions be something you don't like and weren't expecting and then say, "Oh, well, it's not OUR fault. It's someone else's fault." It's like when people donate to charities for Africa and then it ends up causing more misery by propping up a dictatorship. You're NOT allowed to say it was someone else's fault since it was YOUR action that caused the problem.

Religion in politics has just resulted in a society that has Christian values without any of the religious fervour to help it and the inability to argue theology. Now you need to argue against people's base values and mindset without being able to target anything to them. We live in a secular Christian society and that's even worse than living in a religious Christian one.

Also, progressivism isn't responsible for technology. Unless you're saying the Victorians were progressive.

[LoSboccacc]

I wouldn't say the low birth rate is inepitude, just the consequence of being lifted out of poverty and being an industrialized society, and the fact that not all nations are at equal level.

Theres likely some cultural factors too, but the same trend has been seen accross all cultures.

Am young adult in Italy so can comment: there's no economic stability, there's a great deal of uncertainity in the future, there's no path to home owning for the middle class and there's no guarantee of beimg employed past a three year horizon.

Only the dumb people with no foreshadowing are breeding in this climate (and a small upper class minorty that almost doesn't exixst anymore). And while that may replenish the workforce they won't have the resource to become skilled workers, more like the next generation unemployeds harassing people on the street or worse

Also see: places with lower disequality income (both in poverty and richness) having greater growth

[Rolepgeek]

That actually seems more like the problem of progressive policies being appropriated by the financial elite. Things like the reduction of religion in politics, gay rights, women's equality, race rights and the like were closely tied with pro-working class movements that wanted to redistribute wealth and extend social safety nets.

That's not hoe the world works.

You can't have the results of your actions be something you don't like and weren't expecting and then say, "Oh, well, it's not OUR fault. It's someone else's fault." It's like when people donate to charities for Africa and then it ends up causing more misery by propping up a dictatorship. You're NOT allowed to say it was someone else's fault since it was YOUR action that caused the problem.

Religion in politics has just resulted in a society that has Christian values without any of the religious fervour to help it and the inability to argue theology. Now you need to argue against people's base values and mindset without being able to target anything to them. We live in a secular Christian society and that's even worse than living in a religious Christian one.

Also, progressivism isn't responsible for technology. Unless you're saying the Victorians were progressive.

I mean, you know, dictatorships collapsing tends to cause a lot of misery too. I don't know if you're aware of the current situation in the Middle East...?

Though it's cool how you're saying the cause of this was progressives, and not a combination of events including progressives.

Also I disagree on the secular Christian society being worse than religious Christian one. Though, I'm curious now. Do you think reinstating a feudal monarchy with strong exit rights within noble's holdings would be beneficial to society?

[Grim Portent]

A quick flick through some statistics inclines me to think Muslims in the UK have trended towards Labour, but I can't find a good break down on the numbers going into the past. Seems like the only non-Christians who tend towards Conservatives in the UK are Jews though, which is hardly surprising given that they tend to be socially conservative.

Source?

http://www.brin.ac.uk/2014/the-british-election-study-2015-religious-affiliation-and-attitudes/

Just some tables and things there with poll data from different religious groups in the UK on voting intentions. Sample sizes are pretty crap outside Atheists and Anglicans, but the trends match up with some stuff I've read in the past.

Didn't have much time to look further yet because it was 2 in the morning and I have work. If the conversation hasn't zoomed by when I get home later I might go look further into it.

That actually seems more like the problem of progressive policies being appropriated by the financial elite. Things like the reduction of religion in politics, gay rights, women's equality, race rights and the like were closely tied with pro-working class movements that wanted to redistribute wealth and extend social safety nets.

Also, progressivism isn't responsible for technology. Unless you're saying the Victorians were progressive.

Ignoring everything else for now, but where did anyone suggest progressive values lead to technological advancement?

[Shub-Nullgurath]

I mean, you know, dictatorships collapsing tends to cause a lot of misery too. I don't know if you're aware of the current situation in the Middle East...?

Though it's cool how you're saying the cause of this was progressives, and not a combination of events including progressives.

Also I disagree on the secular Christian society being worse than religious Christian one. Though, I'm curious now. Do you think reinstating a feudal monarchy with strong exit rights within noble's holdings would be beneficial to society?

So we should prop up dictatorships and ensure that people have no freedom of their own?

It's ripping off a band aid versus torturing someone with it on.

Do you think religious Christianity is inherently pro-feudalism or something? Have you read the Bible?

Ignoring everything else for now, but where did anyone suggest progressive values lead to technological advancement?

The continual decline of wages has more to do with decreasing margins of production and the monopoly of land ownership than it does with the gross supply of labor or pressures of population (though you are right about a "progressive" society depressing wages in the sense of technological innovation). As society grows more efficient and productive (and a greater portion of economic activity is done in large cities with extremely high land values), the gain in the value of goods and services produced does not translate into higher wages; it actually has the opposite effect, as increasingly marginal land is exploited and labor grows increasingly dependent on land and capital. Almost all of the newly created wealth is swallowed up by rent, either directly or indirectly, while labor (and to a lesser extent capital) experiences a decrease in the portion earned.

[Phmcw]

For me, being left wing is seeing society as a system that can be adapted, tweaked an tuned with an humanistic goal in mind, while being right-wing is seeing society as a collection of individual whose path are mainly driven by their own merits.


For example, if you tell me that you have an issue with criminality, I'll answer that the system is flawed and suggest tweaks to improve it.
I see that the right suggest that the individuals are flawed and have low moral values and need to be punished.

[TempAcc]

Me thinks the problem is far from being an economic issue alone. Look at the main course for today's islamization issue, sweden. Sweden had and still has one of the highest standards of living and succesful welfare states of the recent years, with high wages and government programs that helped people with education, housing, healthcare, etc, and yet it has HUGE youth suicide rates. And as much as people might cry about it, sweden is the last place on europe were you'd find a society dominated by "conservative christian rethoric". In fact, if there was such a thing in sweden, then it wouldn't be in the fucking swamp its currently sinking in, at least not in regards to illegal immigrants and islam taking their children away.

People threw away their sense of responsibility with society and cultural identity. They emptied themselves and their children expecting this to open the doors to ultimate freedom, and instead it only made them empty and lonely. They've surrounded themselves with bland, safe, placid lives of no expectations and few responsibilities. They threw their religion away because they though it restricted them rather than make them question themselves, they threw their culture away because they were too lazy to learn about it, they threw their family away because it made them unconfortable at times, so when someone with a strong message, regardless of how insane it is, comes and opens their doors to these people, said people grab onto it, because it gives them something they didn't have in their confort zones: a sense of purpose. Whats worse, society has arranged a system that prevents people from speaking out against said strong message, because its racist and islamophobic to do so, even if clerics go around in the streets telling people what they should and shouldn't do and advocate violence to nonbelievers.

In being too tolerant, people have become tolerant of intolerance.

Families today are feeble arrangements of people who demand love from one another without demanding respect first, where parents are distant because they have to both work and leave their children at school and at home because they are too exhausted to do anything about it when they're not working. That is, if people even have more than one child because this is europe we're talking about, lel.

Thats how your swedish dudeweed bisexual neighbor who faps to /d/ becomes al swedi the decapitator.

Sure, your circle of internet friends may make fun of your catholic neighbor and his housewive wife, who goes to mass, waves a flag during national holidays and ocasionaly hunts and eats a deer or two, but when push comes to shove, its him who's gonna be keeping his family safe and not taking underage concubines and shooting his brothers in the head because hassan the machete jihadist told him to do so.

You don't seem to know as much about Swedish history and the development of societal culture as you think you do. You probably shouldn't speak with such certainty when all it does is reveal your own misunderstandings and misgivings about both past and present


[author=Covenant link=topic=155469.msg7315744#msg7315744 date=1483571464]
TempAcc: A nice summary. Everyone was in such a rush to shit on their own culture and past for its flaws, without realising that there was a hell of a lot more value there then they'd ever realised.

All the blue-haired dragon-kin demi-girls hated things like tradition, or the Church, because those things said they were wrong, so they tore them down - not realising that those things were a bulwark against much more serious threats.

Grim: 'Appropriated by the financial elite' is a good way to put it. The old left fought for the working class. The new left fights for its paymasters, while distracting everyone with guff about transgender bathrooms or 'mansplaining'.

Are you saying that the tumbler opinionist crowd have access to time travel technology? Or, if not, how else are you proposing they'd able to cause effects before they even existed?
[/quote]

Whats so innacurate about it? Sweden does have one of the best living conditions in the world according to pretty much every index that ranks this sort of thing, its also one of the least religious countries in the world, and yet islam is becoming more popular every day. The only info I listed that isn't exactly correct in the latest years is the suicide rate, which has gone down, but was one of the highest in the world during most of the 20th century, and its still far above norway's. Additionaly sweden offers more social benefits and even permanent residency to "syrian refugees", being even more open than denmark in this regard. Sure, Sweden had the economic swamp of the early 90s, but even then it was still quite well above the world average, and it has recovered a fair bit since.

Hell, at least one swedish friend of mine has commented such things with me before I actualy got to know any of this. So unless there's a magical alternate reality (or revisionism) inside sweden that somehow makes this not true, or that every info about sweden on the internet is made up of propaganda, I'm pretty sure I wasn't too far from the truth when I spoke of sweden in specific, which is just the first paragraph, the rest of it regards western europe in general.

[scriver]

Whats so innacurate about it? Sweden does have one of the best living conditions in the world according to pretty much every index that ranks this sort of thing, its also one of the least religious countries in the world, and yet islam is becoming more popular every day. The only info I listed that isn't exactly correct in the latest years is the suicide rate, which has gone down, but was one of the highest in the world during most of the 20th century, and its still far above norway's. Additionaly sweden offers more social benefits and even permanent residency to "syrian refugees", being even more open than denmark in this regard. Sure, Sweden had the economic swamp of the early 90s, but even then it was still quite well above the world average, and it has recovered a fair bit since.

Hell, at least one swedish friend of mine has commented such things with me before I actualy got to know any of this. So unless there's a magical alternate reality (or revisionism) inside sweden that somehow makes this not true, or that every info about sweden on the internet is made up of propaganda, I'm pretty sure I wasn't too far from the truth when I spoke of sweden in specific, which is just the first paragraph, the rest of it regards western europe in general.

Those are statistics brought up in the first paragraph, the rest of your post is just conclusions you've drawn according to your own bias and lack of knowledge (most of which are completely unsubstantiated by said statistics).

For example, you wrote "sweden is the last place on europe were you'd find a society dominated by "conservative christian rethoric". In fact, if there was such a thing in sweden, then it wouldn't be in the fucking swamp its currently sinking in, at least not in regards to illegal immigrants" which shows you do not even have any idea the Christian church is, both historically and currently, one of the main helper and hider of illegal immigrants in Sweden.

The rest of the post similarly shows that you of the twists and turns of society and temporal spirits, and consequently what have caused today's society, on such a fundamental that I would have to turn this post into a sociology and history lesson to explain it.

The way you go on about about current time at the end also calls into question if you even understand what the modern situation and people is like. Catholics, and hunting? You're kidding, right?

So yeah, you can go on about how it wasn't about Sweden but just "Europe in general" but that only means you're speaking in such general terms that it doesn't apply to anyone. And you should probably apply some more source criticism to what your "at least one Swedish friend" is telling you, because as is, you're just coming of like this "at least one Swedish friend" is just an amalgamation of dumb one-liners and memes about Sweden you've read on 4chan.

[TempAcc]

Hey, if you think the Church of Sweden can be considered a bearer of conservative christian rethoric, then I'm pretty sure I'm not the one getting my info out of 4chan.

[Egan_BW]

Got time to type out massive walls of text about whatever, but not to click Preview and fix your quote tags? Shameful, you guys.