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[Jopax]

They could always take the Trump approach and just wall in all of the middle east. Then open it up after a couple hundred years to see if anything survived the infighting.

[Orange Wizard]

IMO the best approach is basically what Russia's doing - support the local governments until the civil war is tidied up, then we can worry about encouraging them to become less barbaric and repressive.

Or maybe just give everything to Lebanon, they seem to be doing okay.

[sprinkled chariot]

It does not look like anyone except iran and syria want to really engage isis in any way except dropping few bombs from above.

If the West, led by the Untied States, engaged in a serious ground effort to combat them, ISIS would get a tremendous morale boost, would get flooded in locals and foreigners joining them and would ensure that their image as Islamic liberators fighting against infidels and crusaders would further entrench itself within muslim minds.

Besides, the West spends considerably more funds and resources on fighting ISIS than Iran or Russia.

Fancy atgms and other stuff provided to moderate rebels somehow gets into the hands of radicals. Same way as all the fancy stuff given to Iraq army is now property of isis.

[Vilanat]

Right, Sure, it happened, it happens and it will continue to happen. so? i am willing to put a bet that most of ISIS weaponry is still Eastern, mostly Russian, manufactured and the West funding that went into actually fighting ISIS is still more considerable than the Funds Iran/Assad and Russia put into fighting ISIS.

IMO the best approach is basically what Russia's doing - support the local governments until the civil war is tidied up, then we can worry about encouraging them to become less barbaric and repressive.

Or maybe just give everything to Lebanon, they seem to be doing okay.

Lebanon is in a political stagnation that is caused by the defacto occupation of Iran through the terrorist organization Hezbollah.

[Orange Wizard]

Lebanon is in a political stagnation that is caused by the defacto occupation of Iran through the terrorist organization Hezbollah.

Better than Assad

[Vilanat]

No.

[Orange Wizard]

Not really seeing the benefits of "militant Islamic dictatorship with rampant sectarian violence" over "moderately shit republic with rampant sectarian violence" tbh

[Sheb]

Hey, when was the last time Hizbullah gassed civilians?

Also, the US IS fighting IS on the ground, in a limited capacity, within Iraq. Mostly artillery support though (which I guess can still be framed as "dropping bombs from above".)


Edit: The Austrian presidential election results is overturned after court find some postal ballots haven't been appropriately handled. New election to be help in september or october.

[Vilanat]

Not really seeing the benefits of "militant Islamic dictatorship with rampant sectarian violence" over "moderately shit republic with rampant sectarian violence" tbh

But that's exactly where Hezbollah is leading Lebanon towards. It's more militant than Assad, it's more religious by far and dictatorship wise, well, in their controlled parts it is a worse dictatorship than what Syria was before the Civil War.

Hey, when was the last time Hizbullah gassed civilians?

Hezbollah's Nasrallah tortured a baby and burned it in front of its father eyes because he suspected the father was an Israeli spy. i don't think throwing gas at civilians would be much of a concern for them if they ever find the need to use it.

[Rolepgeek]

IMO the best approach is basically what Russia's doing - support the local governments until the civil war is tidied up, then we can worry about encouraging them to become less barbaric and repressive.

Or maybe just give everything to Lebanon, they seem to be doing okay.

You're right.

Polite encouragement is the correct stance to deal with human rights issues.

After all, just look how well those sanctions worked on Hussein! /sarcasm

Things seem to turn out badly when we leave the less stable regions alone, and they seem to turn out badly when we try to occupy the power vacuum ourselves. I say hit the reset button every time something egregiously terrible starts forming, until the people we want to win, win.

I mean, like, how do you honestly expect it to go as it is, right now? I fully expect the former Syrian government to win, after many more years of fighting, use the threat of terrorism and freshly reestablished gov't to enact even harsher laws than before, possibly descending to ethnic cleansing if the world is extra unlucky. Then I expect a decade or two of peace, or a few months after cleansing starts (unless it finishes in which case there'll be an extra decade than there would have been otherwise because all the people who would have resented being treated so poorly have been killed instead), and then rebels in force again. Probably rebels in other places first, mind, and if that happens maybe they'll just spread, like ISIS seems to have. Maybe we'll like them, maybe we won't. But it's not just going to resolve itself neatly for the long-term if you leave it alone. Not from the trends I've seen, at any rate.

[Vilanat]

So it's possible that the mastermind behind Istanbul terrorist attack was a "refugee" in Europe, if you believe that weird website, that is.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/07/istanbul-isis-attack-mastermind-refugee-protected-eu/

[Orange Wizard]

Polite encouragement is the correct stance to deal with human rights issues.

Yeah that's not what I'm saying here

Things seem to turn out badly when we leave the less stable regions alone, and they seem to turn out badly when we try to occupy the power vacuum ourselves. I say hit the reset button every time something egregiously terrible starts forming, until the people we want to win, win.

To be fair occupation doesn't work too badly, it's when the occupation ends that things go to shit. If that's better than perpetual civil war, then fuck me, civil war must be a bed of goddamn roses.

But it's not just going to resolve itself neatly for the long-term if you leave it alone. Not from the trends I've seen, at any rate.

Constantly bombing people is not going to resolve anything either

[Rolepgeek]

Yeah. Which is why I don't want 'just bomb them' as the solution, either.

And if invasion creates resentment and support, how would occupation not?

I know you don't mean literally just asking them, but my point is that sanctions or no, ethnic cleansing was happening, in Iraq, and nobody did shit about it until we thought he was consorting with terrorists. And I find that unacceptable. Literally unacceptable. I cannot believe we just let that happen, while he was violating sanctions. I would prefer occupation to mass murder, and I would prefer a stable government in place to occupation, and I'm sure some people would prefer mass murder w/gov't to perpetual civil war and refugees, with the justification being that if there's gonna be a lot of people dying either way, we may as well be civilized about it. Or something.

Staying out of it, or just idly standing by, throwing airstrikes every few days, doesn't seem like an acceptable option at this point. But I guess it's gotten us this far!

[hector13]

I think it comes from different goals than anything else. The air strikes are for targeting ISIS and their associates, rather than to specifically help anyone win the war in Syria.

I don't think anyone (nation-wise) outside of the Middle East could give two shits about who runs Syria, so long as it isn't ISIS or their ilk. Nobody seems to care about Assad using chemical weapons or anything; heck, Obama bluffed when he said that was a red line and would get American boots on the ground, and Assad called it.

Libya is a good example. Civil war against Gadaffi, the West bombed the shit out them, massive political vacuum, vague promises of "yeah we'll help you sort yourselves out after elections" then just left them to it. Last I checked (a while back) there were two groups claiming legitimacy for government, one of which was religious in nature.

[Orange Wizard]

Maybe we could try getting Western nations to annex them directly