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[MorleyDev]

I guess I view the world very differently then: Our traditions don't make us who we are. Our upbringing and the lessons passed to us influence us sure, but in turn we influence them back. And we have power of choice, and so we need have to have the wisdom to be able to separate ourselves from our histories in order to identity our flaws and to work to improve and be better than our pasts. Those who don't understand the past may be doomed to repeat it, but those who worship the past are doomed by it.

We change the world as much as the world changes us, and the current traditions are an emergent property of that interaction, and so not of value by themselves but part of an ever evolving feedback loop.

[TD1]

I don't recall saying I was against change; well do I know the lessons of history, having spent some time studying it. I am against substitution and destruction of a form which renders history meaningless.

[MorleyDev]

Is the Celtic history of England without meaning, just because that culture is gone?

[scriver]

Dude, Wales is sitting right there.

[Il Palazzo]

Wales is not England.

[MorleyDev]

He must have seen it in the 30 seconds before I went "oh right, Wales" and edited it xD

Either way, was just trying to make the point that history has value regardless as to whether the beliefs and practices of the people who lived it are active or predominant.

To clarify as well: I'm not saying that traditions can't have value, but that I don't regard being a tradition as a value in itself. And people have no obligation to work to preserve them just for being traditions.

I go to the pub because I enjoy it. I go with friends because we enjoy it. If I made a new friend I'd probably try and take them to the pub. If they enjoy it then we'll probably keep going to the pub. No where in there does "going to the pub" need to be done "because it's traditional" and if I stopped enjoying it I wouldn't keep taking new friends to the pub just "because it's traditional". And if everyone in the country but me stopped enjoying pubs, then they have no obligation to work to keep people going to the pub for the sake of tradition and I'd have no right to go around dragging people into empty pubs, though I could still ask nicely. Ultimately, that there was a tradition of going to the pub is just an emergent property of multiple people enjoying going to the pub.

That is the distinction to me between finding value in a tradition, and finding tradition to be a value.

By all means carry on your traditions*, but don't begrudge others if they no longer find value in your particular set of traditions or have different ones.

* standard disclaimer: so long as they don't infringe the rights of others, duh.

[Eschar]

Either way, was just trying to make the point that history has value regardless as to whether the beliefs and practices of the people who lived it are active or predominant.

- snip -

"Argue nuances of tradition"

[smjjames]

Sounds like they're treating no-deal Brexit as inevitable despite Johnsons promises to make a deal and fears about him 'forcing'* through no-deal Brexit.

Still a good idea to prepare just in case though since it's only inevitable to the extent that the government allows it to be inevitable.

*I say 'forcing' because there’s the whole prorogung Parliament in order to force no-deal and then there’s letting the clock run out.

[hector13]

The most bizarre part of the article is - aside from the fact it appears they haven’t actually invested in training more border guards - is that support for the Tories has increased.

I’m hoping that’s because Theresa May stepped down, and not because Boris is at the helm.

Anyway, however much it pains me to say it, Boris is a shrewd politician. He’s been wanting power for so long he’s not going to throw it away so soon by suspending parliament.

This is all just setting things up for the inevitable. They know they’re not getting a deal, they need to make sure it looks like the EU’s fault so they can win the election which is sure to follow.

Theresa May tried to do it, but she’s rubbish so it was plainly obvious that was what she was doing; perhaps this lot can do it better.

Priti Patel has already made Boris look like a buffoon by failing to follow the ministerial code though, which is exactly why she had to step down from her previous role as international development minister in 2017, so they’re not really off to the best start there...

[smjjames]

I was referencing the fears that some had which Johnson might do and I was trying to make a distinction between a more active forcing and a more passive (or maybe passive-aggressive) forcing. Running out the clock is probably the most he can do as far as forcing anyway.

As I said though, it’s only as inevitable as the government allows it to be. Definitely won’t stop Labor and others from trying their hardest to stop a no-deal Brexit from happening.

[Magistrum]

Man, that Brexit stuff is so amazing to watch. It's like a trainwreck in slow motion. Beautiful.

I mean it, it's not always that you can take the time to appreciate it not just the cause and result like that, but also indulge in the feeling of inevitable horror during the development of catastrophe. Breathtaking, really.

[hector13]

It’ll all be ending soon.

Well, after the politicians come back from their Summer holiday, ‘cause that’s seriously wtf Summer holidays now you morons maybe it would be a good time to suspend parliamentary recesses you idiots.

[smjjames]

Man, that Brexit stuff is so amazing to watch. It's like a trainwreck in slow motion. Beautiful.

I mean it, it's not always that you can take the time to appreciate it not just the cause and result like that, but also indulge in the feeling of inevitable horror during the development of catastrophe. Breathtaking, really.

Yea, I read an article saying that they wouldn't budge on no-deal until the EU dropped the NI border backstop and reopened for negotiation, which they aren't going to do. Then a diplomat mentioned there said that EU leaders (or at least their diplomats) need to get into contact with Johnson and his team to clarify what they really want vs what's for domestic consumption.

However, what they really want is Brexit and as per Theresa May, Brexit is Brexit, whatever Brexit means. It's like saying x=x without defining x.

It’ll all be ending soon.

Well, after the politicians come back from their Summer holiday, ‘cause that’s seriously wtf Summer holidays now you morons maybe it would be a good time to suspend parliamentary recesses you idiots.

You're talking about hardcore Brexiteers here who would rather go for no-deal Brexit than use the plan that currently exists. Besides, they can't actually start voting on the stuff until Johnson feels he is ready to submit it to Parliament and have them vote on it.

[smjjames]

Nothing interesting going on in Europe? The Italian government is falling apart (because the two right wing parties sharing a coalition are having a falling out over a railway tunnel, though that may be oversimplifying it) with and Boris Johnson [url=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/09/is-boris-johnson-planning-an-election]is making moves that look like planning for a snap election. On the 'only way to stop a no-deal Brexit' bit in there, isn't it going to require the EU to either give their okay to further delay it or say 'No, this is bullshit.'? As desperate as some are to stop a no-deal Brexit, it's going to require convincing the EU to stop the clock. Not sure if there is a way to trigger some procedural thing that would automatically stop the clock, but as far as I know, the EU is really the only one that can stop or extend the clock.

[Frumple]

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, there is one way to immediately and unilaterally stop the clock on a no-deal self-own. Just one, and no other option without EU input.

It's called "revoke article 50"

E: That said, bojo seems to be planning to have that after no-deal shits all over the rug. Basically fuck everything, then laugh at everyone and go crawl in some hole to hide. Which sounds very in character, I guess.