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Author Topic: Military Tactics and Strategies?  (Read 11027 times)

Jimmy

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2016, 01:47:38 am »

Either that or someone was having a smoke and forgot to stub it out properly.
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Sheb

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2016, 04:35:04 am »

Am I the only one that is disappointed that the story didn't go like "So I took the next best tool in our arsenal and shot a high explosive round at the burning tree, obliterating it. Sadly, the shell set another tree on fire..."?

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Erkki

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2016, 06:27:48 am »

I'd be inteersted in learning how artillery support is and was arranged within the US Army / USMC in the latest conflicts. The preparations and communications side of it mostly.

Our system is made for a very different kind of a conflict: one where artillery's role is the traditional one(= firing for effect against large formations, huge part of the entire military's firepower being provided by the artillery and the enemy's logistics tied to the road network mostly) and a forward observer or equivalent usually has a minimum of 18 guns at his/her use. I dont believe that would be very practical in scenarios where the targets are likely just groups of 1 to 3 Talibans and their location may be more or less inaccurately known, and long distances and elevation differences in the mountains would add to the difficulties.

How was it done in Afghanistan? Would even individual weapons be readied for fire missions supporting even singular squads? Would everyday patrols in villages and towns have artillery units assigned for support? Does the infantry have direct comms to the supporting units or is it via an operational center of some kind? Do such missions have pre-assigned artillery targets? Where would the artillery be positioned - mountaintops? Were vehicle(Stryker, M113 etc) mortar carriers any good?

Or was it just more practical to call an A-10 or an attack helicopter?
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Jimmy

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2016, 08:24:20 am »

I'd be interested to know how movies such as American Sniper compare to the real tactics and strategies used by infantry squads.
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Strife26

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2016, 09:23:00 am »

Unfortunately, both infantry and artillery are things most lyrics out of my depth. I can call for fire and was effectively infantry during my time in Iraq, but neither of those represent much expertise.

As a general rule for realism in holiday movies, the further away the movie is from Pain Closet*, the closer to some degree of accuracy. Anyone who defends said abomination probably has an opinion you can safely ignore.

*
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Vilanat

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2016, 02:30:44 pm »

Can't recall any notable realistic squad movement/tactics in American Sniper.

Bravo Two Zero's first battle in this scene from 4:15 onward is a pretty accurate description of tactical  advancement under fire in open field warfare.

Black Hawk Down does a good job with urban warfare. the Rangers movement around corners, while crossing streets, entering buildings, how they cover each other, etc is pretty good. their mistakes are also pretty common and realistic mistakes. The Delta team movement is textbook most of the time.
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Catmeat

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #51 on: January 22, 2016, 05:30:13 am »

What about stealth tactics?
I live in an urban enviroment and I often play vigilante and want to get better at sneaking.
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Erkki

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #52 on: January 22, 2016, 07:39:07 am »

What about stealth tactics?
I live in an urban enviroment and I often play vigilante and want to get better at sneaking.

Do you have a specific scenario or situation in mind? Theres many kinds of "stealth".
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Helgoland

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #53 on: January 22, 2016, 08:04:19 am »

Now I have the mental image of a B-2 bomber desperately trying to blend in in a backstreet, and then cops coming to beat it up because it's black.
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Jimmy

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2016, 09:59:13 am »

Spoiler: You're Welcome (click to show/hide)

It's amazing the paradigm shift that occurred between strategies from the introduction of firearms. Still, at the end of the day, I'd say the change that occurred due to the internal combustion engine and the development of other modern vehicles that followed is at least as striking. Armies don't mean squat without logistics.
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Insanegame27

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2016, 01:27:23 am »

I asked an ex-counter-special-forces soldier-turned-teacher-turned-codingStudentOfMine what was the biggest thing they taught you in the military and he said it was the little things that were the biggest things. For example, in left-to-right reading countries you pick up more detail when searching for something by looking right to left, and vice versa.
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Shazbot

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2016, 03:36:52 am »

It wasn't gunpowder that changed tactics (strategy fundamentally hasn't changed). A phalanx of Greeks was a line six or eight men and as wide as it had men. A regiment of Napoleonic troops looked and behaved exactly the same, except their spear heads were lead balls stabbed on a fifty-pace shaft of smoke. Come to think of it, Greeks were exchanging lead balls on slings. Maybe there were multiple thinner lines, but Roman armies in the Republican days did the same. The pike and shot squares of the late Renaissance seem novel until we recognize they were mimicking the maniple Legion. Pre-gunpowder armies had adopted the square for cavalry defense well before Waterloo, and Roman artillery was prolific and effective. The world record for a land offensive was held by the Mongols until Desert Storm, and infantry marching on the Eastern Front were no faster than Roman legionaries. The bowstring becoming a chemical reaction didn't change this. In some ways, the musket forced even closer order formations, since noise, smoke, and vulnerability to cavalry (its a lousy replacement for a spear) required tight control and precise timing of volleys to keep from presenting a disorganized, half-reloading mob to the enemy cavalry.

The end of close order formations in open ground was smokeless powder and self-loading rifles. Once lever or bolt action rifles became standard issue with smokeless powder an individual could fire from concealment while having enough combat power to hold that ground. Consider an archer shooting at Romans from some German forest. He can be hidden, but if a dozen troops detach to find him, he can't hope to defeat them in hand-to hand. Consider a muzzle-loading rifleman in the Virginia woods. He can't stay hidden when he fires, and immediately draws a huge volume of fire onto his position if he does fire. But a smokeless, self-loading rifleman can't be picked out of concealment. He can fire with relative impunity and only give his position away by sound. The only defense against him is not to be seen, or to be so dug in that his fire is ineffective. This drove the British to trenches in the Boer war against an enemy without machine guns, but plenty of Mausers. But the end of one thing is not the beginning of another, and so WWI was an unthinking mess. The German army was the first to really figure out the solution, with their strong NCO tradition and officers accustomed to delegating. Open order came about when the small group leaders were finally given the freedom to exploit cover and concealment in the smallest possible units, without the mass formations officers previously used to control their men.

Incidentally the Roman manipular legions were exploiting battlefield freedom in 60-120 man units against hopelessly static Greek phalanxes, using javelins, swords, and an ability to switch between the two at a centurion's trumpet. Everything old is new again. But if I had to pin it to something, smokeless powder made attacking from concealment possible and swept the modern battlefield. It is now very, very elaborate hide-and-seek.
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Parsely

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2016, 05:48:29 am »

-snip-
^^This guy gets it.

Tho this might be completely wrong since it's based on my understanding but I think fighting in formation fell out of style with the advent of heavy artillery which could easily obliterate a formation in a few shots. It also probably happened because the battlefields themselves changed, from open fields and fortifications to urban and rural population centers where you couldn't really keep a formation due to the terrain not allowing it.

Also PTW, this kind of thing interests me.
Formations as a concept didn't evaporate with the coming of heavy artillery. Formations haven't changed much at all, they've just gotten bigger in terms of the distance between individuals, which became easier to manage the more communication improved. Formations exist at all levels of combat, from the squad on up past the company levels.

Spoiler: Army FM 17-18 (click to show/hide)
Army field manuals are public domain and available online, going all the way back to World War 2. They're a great source of information.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So why did people fight in big, open battlefields anyway? Why bother getting in formation and everything when you could simply ignore a big fight and send all your men to target farms, villages etc. to cut off their supplies?
Communication. Up until only very recently at the turn of the 20th century, orders had to be given by verbal means, aided by signals like instruments, flags, etc. It's to your benefit to have as many men as possible in order to win, and the best way to control a lot of people at once when the only way to tell them what to do is by yelling at them is to have them all very close together. Orders that haven't been worked out in advance travel at the speed of a horse or foot. This is why surprise was so damn important up to a hundred years ago (and continues to be, but it must be stressed how much faster we can react to an emergency in a digital world). If your enemy anticipates you and splits your forces, unlike today it is impossible to form a cooperative response because the two groups have no way of delivering complicated messages to one another.

What about stealth tactics?
I live in an urban enviroment and I often play vigilante and want to get better at sneaking.
Military stealth is the wrong kind of stealth for you then. The best way to blend in in an urban environment is to look like a civilian, and if you're a native of your area you're probably already pretty good at that unless you have problems with social cues, but then being awkward is a big part of being normal too. Look into social engineering.

Edit:
I'd be inteersted in learning how artillery support is and was arranged within the US Army / USMC in the latest conflicts. The preparations and communications side of it mostly.

Our system is made for a very different kind of a conflict: one where artillery's role is the traditional one(= firing for effect against large formations, huge part of the entire military's firepower being provided by the artillery and the enemy's logistics tied to the road network mostly) and a forward observer or equivalent usually has a minimum of 18 guns at his/her use. I dont believe that would be very practical in scenarios where the targets are likely just groups of 1 to 3 Talibans and their location may be more or less inaccurately known, and long distances and elevation differences in the mountains would add to the difficulties.

How was it done in Afghanistan? Would even individual weapons be readied for fire missions supporting even singular squads? Would everyday patrols in villages and towns have artillery units assigned for support? Does the infantry have direct comms to the supporting units or is it via an operational center of some kind? Do such missions have pre-assigned artillery targets? Where would the artillery be positioned - mountaintops? Were vehicle(Stryker, M113 etc) mortar carriers any good?

Or was it just more practical to call an A-10 or an attack helicopter?
The way I understand it, at the company level superiors tell their inferiors what support is available to them and give them instructions about when they have permission to use them. Fire support exists at different levels. As an example, a Marine Expeditionary Unit (division) has infantry regiments and also an artillery regiment. Marine regiment-level support for infantry usually just includes small-bore mortars. Moving up to the battalion level there is an artillery regiment whose batteries carry out missions as they come in. Battalion commanders are the ones who assign and schedule this kind of fire support. If he's planning for one of his infantry regiments to make an attack at a certain time, he might ask his batteries to only accept missions coming from that area for a certain time frame.

There's some reading here that you could do from a 1994 fire support manual. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-71/Ch3.htm
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 06:09:25 am by GUNINANRUNIN »
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Erkki

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2016, 09:22:36 am »


The way I understand it, at the company level superiors tell their inferiors what support is available to them and give them instructions about when they have permission to use them. Fire support exists at different levels. As an example, a Marine Expeditionary Unit (division) has infantry regiments and also an artillery regiment. Marine regiment-level support for infantry usually just includes small-bore mortars. Moving up to the battalion level there is an artillery regiment whose batteries carry out missions as they come in. Battalion commanders are the ones who assign and schedule this kind of fire support. If he's planning for one of his infantry regiments to make an attack at a certain time, he might ask his batteries to only accept missions coming from that area for a certain time frame.

There's some reading here that you could do from a 1994 fire support manual. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/6-71/Ch3.htm

Thanks but that seems to be behind a paywall to me... I'm more or less familiar with the various TOEs and OOBs, but what remains a mystery is how things are done at the lowest level, platoons and fire teams.


..

Incidentally the Roman manipular legions were exploiting battlefield freedom in 60-120 man units against hopelessly static Greek phalanxes, using javelins, swords, and an ability to switch between the two at a centurion's trumpet. Everything old is new again. But if I had to pin it to something, smokeless powder made attacking from concealment possible and swept the modern battlefield. It is now very, very elaborate hide-and-seek.

I'd draw the line a few years earlier, in US Civil War that was the first large "industrial" war. Smokeless powder helped yeah, providing some 4x or so of the power compared to black powder, but there were other innovations too invented during the prior 150 or so years: the steam engine and railways improving logistics, electric telegraphy improving communications, rifling, improved metallurgy allowing for longer ranged, accurate and lightweight cannons, and the metal cartridge and (internal) magazine and lever action vastly improving the accuracy and rate of fire of the individual foot soldier. And of course, (nearly) industrial mass production of all equipment.
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MonkeyHead

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Re: Military Tactics and Strategies?
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2016, 09:48:04 am »

You could also argue that the last "old" war would have been the Crimean War (only a few years earlier than the US civil war...), which featured many of the aspects that one would associate with the earlier formation dominated warfare meshed with the technological innovations you describe. The tools existed, but nobody seemed to know how to use them.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 09:50:43 am by MonkeyHead »
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