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[Salmeuk]

I just think there needs to be better naming schemes.  Refugees can have one set of names different from performing troupes, and both of those are different from colony-founding groups and city governments.  Either use different word banks "Rags of Despair," or simply call them "The refugees of X"  A founding group can be "Civilization name _ Founders _ Insert random shit here"

As you mentioned, hearing that the Wet Socks of the Ragining Llamas founded the Anvil of Wobbling, but then the Tears of Sacking from the Undulating Punch of the Limp Knife conquered it and set up a new government called the "Sticks of Sticking" is just word-soup gibberish. None of these names have context behind them.

I tend to imagine that the dwarven language has various colloquialisms that translate poorly to English. I enjoy making up the reasons for silly names, like "The Anvil of Wobbling was a fortress named for it's tumultuous early leadership," or "The Tears of Sacking was a band of particularly evil goblins who enjoyed the thrill of pillaging and seeing their victims cry." I agree we could use some sort of symbol before or after each kind of name to denote what exactly it is, since the syntax isn't quite as clear as it could be (though if you struggle through it your example is entirely decipherable).

Frankly, if you're ever delved into the etymology of place-names (especially those in foreign languages) you discover just how crude and arbitrary names can be. Check this out and tell me it doesn't read like a joke at first: http://www.omnimap.com/cgi/graphic.pl?images/for-road/67-1081Wd.jpg

That's from a world map of "original" place names translated into English. See what I mean?

[Bumber]

Frankly, if you're ever delved into the etymology of place-names (especially those in foreign languages) you discover just how crude and arbitrary names can be. Check this out and tell me it doesn't read like a joke at first: http://www.omnimap.com/cgi/graphic.pl?images/for-road/67-1081Wd.jpg

That's from a world map of "original" place names translated into English. See what I mean?

Stink Onion
I Don't Understand You!

[Urist_McArathos]

I just think there needs to be better naming schemes.  Refugees can have one set of names different from performing troupes, and both of those are different from colony-founding groups and city governments.  Either use different word banks "Rags of Despair," or simply call them "The refugees of X"  A founding group can be "Civilization name _ Founders _ Insert random shit here"

As you mentioned, hearing that the Wet Socks of the Ragining Llamas founded the Anvil of Wobbling, but then the Tears of Sacking from the Undulating Punch of the Limp Knife conquered it and set up a new government called the "Sticks of Sticking" is just word-soup gibberish. None of these names have context behind them.

I tend to imagine that the dwarven language has various colloquialisms that translate poorly to English. I enjoy making up the reasons for silly names, like "The Anvil of Wobbling was a fortress named for it's tumultuous early leadership," or "The Tears of Sacking was a band of particularly evil goblins who enjoyed the thrill of pillaging and seeing their victims cry." I agree we could use some sort of symbol before or after each kind of name to denote what exactly it is, since the syntax isn't quite as clear as it could be (though if you struggle through it your example is entirely decipherable).

Frankly, if you're ever delved into the etymology of place-names (especially those in foreign languages) you discover just how crude and arbitrary names can be. Check this out and tell me it doesn't read like a joke at first: http://www.omnimap.com/cgi/graphic.pl?images/for-road/67-1081Wd.jpg

That's from a world map of "original" place names translated into English. See what I mean?

This makes a good point; that map makes North America look like a hack fantasy world. 

"We set sail from Heart's Farm, across Moon Navel Gulf.  We landed in the Place of Water Dogs, before beginning our arduous journey west to Stonewater...."

[Vattic]

For more of the same you also have the Atlas of True Names. Then you also have all the rivers in the world that are called river in some local language or dialect.

[Niddhoger]

Oh yeah... The famous "Ponte Vechio" in Florence simply means "old bridge" in Italian. "Des Moines" is simply "the mounds" in French. My point was just to add more plain signifier words, as there is clearly no naming scheme. Baring that, a word bank for each group (performers, refuges, founders, war-parties) could be added. Personally, we can keep the weird names for countries and places, but be more direct with personal groups. The Spoony Bards from Anvil Storm arrived in Grave Spittle, it then the Rage of Artum from the Perils of Blood invaded. It's a little easier to keep track of.

[LMeire]

I just think there needs to be better naming schemes.  Refugees can have one set of names different from performing troupes, and both of those are different from colony-founding groups and city governments.  Either use different word banks "Rags of Despair," or simply call them "The refugees of X"  A founding group can be "Civilization name _ Founders _ Insert random shit here"

As you mentioned, hearing that the Wet Socks of the Ragining Llamas founded the Anvil of Wobbling, but then the Tears of Sacking from the Undulating Punch of the Limp Knife conquered it and set up a new government called the "Sticks of Sticking" is just word-soup gibberish. None of these names have context behind them.

I tend to imagine that the dwarven language has various colloquialisms that translate poorly to English. I enjoy making up the reasons for silly names, like "The Anvil of Wobbling was a fortress named for it's tumultuous early leadership," or "The Tears of Sacking was a band of particularly evil goblins who enjoyed the thrill of pillaging and seeing their victims cry." I agree we could use some sort of symbol before or after each kind of name to denote what exactly it is, since the syntax isn't quite as clear as it could be (though if you struggle through it your example is entirely decipherable).

Frankly, if you're ever delved into the etymology of place-names (especially those in foreign languages) you discover just how crude and arbitrary names can be. Check this out and tell me it doesn't read like a joke at first: http://www.omnimap.com/cgi/graphic.pl?images/for-road/67-1081Wd.jpg

That's from a world map of "original" place names translated into English. See what I mean?

So apparently "Nicaragua" doesn't actually have a meaning?

[Urist_McArathos]

I'm more interested in finding out how they got a definition for "Idaho", considering its actual meaning is "Some white guy pulled this word out of his ass and claimed it was a Native American word".

[Salmeuk]

That was my first thought when I read the map (beyond literally thinking it was a joke map), but I believe they went back and tried to use what knowledge we have of indigenous languages to find the original name. Apparently the full map offers multiple translations, and the company does have a "translations not definitive" disclaimer. I would think of the map and the names as an artifact of our current era rather than a porthole into times past.

I didn't mean to derail the thread, sorry. I still think a good utility would be one titled something like "Dwarven Analytics," where it pops up a window and graphs for how many dwarves like both steel and short swords, or more realistically both olive wood wood and schist. You could track the majority interests of your various nobles in order to better outfit their dining halls, and breed certain animals should a large number of dwarves like keas or something. Wolfram Alpha for dwarven personalities. I think dwarf therapist has a few of these functions but I don't use it so I can't say.

[Shazbot]

Everything I know about game design I learned from Extra Credit, but this is a prime example of depth versus complexity. The game's randomly generated languages, titans, creatures, civilizations, names, and materials all add up to a lot of complexity. This obscures the actual information the player needs. It has been problematic in the past, and the lobby for more randomly generated "content" is going to exacerbate it. I am genuinely concerned this game is going to become incomprehensible with enough randomizing.

There definitely needs to be changes made to name pools (kingdoms called 'Kingdom of', etc) and toggles for translated names. Going from Dwarven to English last names already confuses me when deciding which Rovod to give a door engraved with an image of Rovod Channelflares. Is that Rovod Koruzmid or Rovod Karuzmid in the room assignment sidebar?

[Urist_McArathos]

Scanning back over the thread again, it really seems like the problem here isn't depth but the interface, as already stated.

I'm not sure how to resolve that since we'll probably get more depth and detail LONG before we get an already way overdue UI overhaul.  We'll almost certainly have to rely on a mod to parse everything into easily browsed and searched windows.  Any volunteers?  I would but I can barely code as it is, and even then only in python.

[Shazbot]

Overhaul the UI? You might as well ask for sewage in our sewers.

I'm getting kind of bitter, aren't I.

[Dirst]

I recall the first time I looked at a Thoughts and Preferences screen back in 0.34.11.  My thought was "And I'm supposed to keep track of all of this?"  Turns out you don't need to pay it any mind unless you want to.  I do agree that it should be presented in manageable chucks, preferably when it is having some impact on gameplay.

[Shazbot]

I have only recently learned that liked materials or objects get a quality bonus when crafted. It had been seven years.

[Dorsidwarf]

I just think there needs to be better naming schemes.  Refugees can have one set of names different from performing troupes, and both of those are different from colony-founding groups and city governments.  Either use different word banks "Rags of Despair," or simply call them "The refugees of X"  A founding group can be "Civilization name _ Founders _ Insert random shit here"

As you mentioned, hearing that the Wet Socks of the Ragining Llamas founded the Anvil of Wobbling, but then the Tears of Sacking from the Undulating Punch of the Limp Knife conquered it and set up a new government called the "Sticks of Sticking" is just word-soup gibberish. None of these names have context behind them.

This, so much. The world needs more titles & distinctions, so we can identify which things are important at a glance, rather than painstakingly searching.

[Vattic]

I am genuinely concerned this game is going to become incomprehensible with enough randomizing.

Handily it's a concern Toady has mentioned himself regarding procedural generation. It's part of the reason a semi-typical fantasy base has been stuck to instead of having completely generated species.