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[King Kitteh]

Also [LIKES_FIGHTING] is outdated, since 0.40.14 according to the wiki. I'm not sure whether this means it still works or not.

[Uzu Bash]

The simple answer is that it's pure bugginess. These goblin immigrants come from civilizations otherwise hostile to their current civ, yet they could live there in perfect peace up until they load on the map with you. Then suddenly they get a wild hair and just have to attack you and/or anyone else in the room -- and these aren't isolated incidents! All other factors considered, it's still beyond plausibility.

[Killgoth]

I don't think it is a bug. Goblins are vile creatures that should never be trusted. Some people are weak and think that they can be civilized, but all gobbos are the same deep down. It is completely normal that societies may let them assimilate, I can even imagine some human factions organizing marches for goblin rights...but a gobbo will always be a gobbo.

This is why I exterminate all gobbos on site and without question.

[Uzu Bash]

Oh, come on, there's always method to the madness. Surely as vile and malicious as they can be they have more cunning and self-interest than to only act up on the arrival of a heavily armed asskicker who obviously looks like he means business. Even if some of them are that stupid, how could they be uniformly that stupid?

[Killgoth]

Oh, come on, there's always method to the madness. Surely as vile and malicious as they can be they have more cunning and self-interest than to only act up on the arrival of a heavily armed asskicker who obviously looks like he means business. Even if some of them are that stupid, how could they be uniformly that stupid?

They don't require food and they don't die of old age. Starvation and dieing of old age are very important evolutionary tools.  Their idiots live forever and are probably breeding constantly because they don't have to concern themselves with acquiring food for themselves or their offspring.  A large portion of human cognition that relates to social interaction and planning ahead is the result of millions of years of needing to eat and pass on your DNA before you croak.

The hellish magic that spawned these creatures basically froze them evolutionarily.

[ZM5]

Oh, come on, there's always method to the madness. Surely as vile and malicious as they can be they have more cunning and self-interest than to only act up on the arrival of a heavily armed asskicker who obviously looks like he means business. Even if some of them are that stupid, how could they be uniformly that stupid?

They don't require food and they don't die of old age. Starvation and dieing of old age are very important evolutionary tools.  Their idiots live forever and are probably breeding constantly because they don't have to concern themselves with acquiring food for themselves or their offspring.  A large portion of human cognition that relates to social interaction and planning ahead is the result of millions of years of needing to eat and pass on your DNA before you croak.

The hellish magic that spawned these creatures basically froze them evolutionarily.

Thats...surprisingly insightful and scientific-sounding, for talking about an in-game creature.

[King Kitteh]

   They don't require food and they don't die of old age. Starvation and dieing of old age are very important evolutionary tools.  Their idiots live forever and are probably breeding constantly because they don't have to concern themselves with acquiring food for themselves or their offspring.  A large portion of human cognition that relates to social interaction and planning ahead is the result of millions of years of needing to eat and pass on your DNA before you croak.

Thats...surprisingly insightful and scientific-sounding, for talking about an in-game creature.

Yeah, he was going well until he said "human cognition". Human cognition? HUMAN COGNITION?! Why not Dwarven cognition?! Where the survivor is the one who can avoid horrid wonderful daycare with vicious mutts cuddly puppies. Escaping the grasp of the Giant Cave Spiders, and Urist McMandate's... Mandates. Ability to retrieve a -pigtail fibre sock- in the middle of a battle field, and the stomache to eat nothing but mushrooms for an eternity. That is what makes true Dwarves! Also beards, beards which filthy Goblins lack! (Well, atleast impressive ones).

[ZM5]

   They don't require food and they don't die of old age. Starvation and dieing of old age are very important evolutionary tools.  Their idiots live forever and are probably breeding constantly because they don't have to concern themselves with acquiring food for themselves or their offspring.  A large portion of human cognition that relates to social interaction and planning ahead is the result of millions of years of needing to eat and pass on your DNA before you croak.

Thats...surprisingly insightful and scientific-sounding, for talking about an in-game creature.

Yeah, he was going well until he said "human cognition". Human cognition? HUMAN COGNITION?! Why not Dwarven cognition?! Where the survivor is the one who can avoid horrid wonderful daycare with vicious mutts cuddly puppies. Escaping the grasp of the Giant Cave Spiders, and Urist McMandate's... Mandates. Ability to retrieve a -pigtail fibre sock- in the middle of a battle field, and the stomache to eat nothing but mushrooms for an eternity. That is what makes true Dwarves! Also beards, beards which filthy Goblins lack! (Well, atleast impressive ones).

To be fair...dwarves have to procure food but their idiots still reproduce like crazy. That could be attributed to alcohol though.

Humans seem to be a bit more reasonable than all the other vanilla races. Keyword "bit".

EDIT: Okay, I edited my Vrykul civ to start in cities, removed the [EVIL] tag. Two observations (that more than likely apply to the goblin hostility problem as well):

-If you're a vrykul yourself they won't attack you at all, even the warriors
-If you're not one, the townsfolk will leave you alone, but the warriors will still try to maim you. Even if you're supposed to be a member of their civilization, you'll still die if you're an animal man. Visitors also get no mercy and I believe they're attacked by everyone equally - saw some dead visitors at a tavern.

I am guessing this is due to a race's personality and moral values - violence and anger propensity I'd imagine are partially responsible for this behavior in goblins, those values are set pretty high in their raws, so they start fights randomly, or maybe due to arguments on their conflicting morals.

I'll do more science soon enough, like changing goblin sites to cities and seeing how they interact with visitors and such.

[Killgoth]

   They don't require food and they don't die of old age. Starvation and dieing of old age are very important evolutionary tools.  Their idiots live forever and are probably breeding constantly because they don't have to concern themselves with acquiring food for themselves or their offspring.  A large portion of human cognition that relates to social interaction and planning ahead is the result of millions of years of needing to eat and pass on your DNA before you croak.

Thats...surprisingly insightful and scientific-sounding, for talking about an in-game creature.

Yeah, he was going well until he said "human cognition". Human cognition? HUMAN COGNITION?! Why not Dwarven cognition?! Where the survivor is the one who can avoid horrid wonderful daycare with vicious mutts cuddly puppies. Escaping the grasp of the Giant Cave Spiders, and Urist McMandate's... Mandates. Ability to retrieve a -pigtail fibre sock- in the middle of a battle field, and the stomache to eat nothing but mushrooms for an eternity. That is what makes true Dwarves! Also beards, beards which filthy Goblins lack! (Well, atleast impressive ones).

Arguably dwarves go through an even tougher evolutionary meat grinder than humans, which is probably why they are the most technologically advanced and industrious species. 

[Robsoie]

The highest scientific dwarven authority have studied gobs, and have observed that a goblin is

A medium-sized humanoid driven to cruelty by its evil nature.

After many experimentations about sending waves of their dwarven brothers to live into secluded fortresses and looking at what gobs do to such fortresses once they get in, the dwarven scientists concluded that the only good goblin is a dead goblin.

[ZM5]

Okay, joking aside - it seems to be entirely a values and ethics issue.

You can have a race thats intolerant, prone to violence, cruelty and outbursts of anger, but they'll be friendly as long as they have values that promote peace and self-control, and their ethics don't promote torture for fun. Anything that's not similar to goblins in both of these regards will be friendly, it seems.

[King Kitteh]

I don't think the [EVIL] tag actually changes ethics and behaviour though. It just means that civilization can settle in evil areas. Or that the creature will only appear in evil biomes.

But yeah, I guess Goblins are just liable to starting fights.

they could live there in perfect peace up until they load on the map with you. Then suddenly they get a wild hair and just have to attack you and/or anyone else in the room

However the bug may be that these fights aren't happening when you aren't there.

[Robsoie]

The [EVIL] tag :

Creature is considered evil and will only show up in evil biomes. Civilizations with USE_EVIL_ANIMALS can domesticate them regardless of exotic status. Has no effect on cavern creatures except to restrict taming. A civilization with evil creatures can colonise evil areas.

What impact the goblin behaviour is the creature trait :

   [PERSONALITY:ANGER_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:HATE_PROPENSITY:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:VIOLENT:25:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:EXCITEMENT_SEEKING:0:60:100]
   [PERSONALITY:CHEER_PROPENSITY:0:40:90]
   [PERSONALITY:ALTRUISM:0:25:50]
   [PERSONALITY:IMMODESTY:10:60:100]
   [PERSONALITY:CRUELTY:50:75:100]
   [PERSONALITY:SWAYED_BY_EMOTIONS:0:25:50]
   [PERSONALITY:TOLERANT:50:75:100]

For what they mean :
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Personality_trait

Additionally, the lack of [BENIGN] make their personality more important, as dwarves with their [BENIGN] tag are near forced to be pacifists unless drunks

The creature is non-aggressive by default and will never automatically be engaged by companions or soldiers. It will run away from any creatures that are not friendly to it. Can be thought of as the counterpoint of the LARGE_PREDATOR tag. When tamed, animals with this tag will be useless for fortress defense.

[ZM5]

I don't think the [EVIL] tag actually changes ethics and behaviour though. It just means that civilization can settle in evil areas. Or that the creature will only appear in evil biomes.

Was just checking to make sure - same for changing their site type to cities and hamlets instead of dark fortresses.

Anyway, final conclusions:
-Personality types of a civ's population appear to have no effect on the hostility of an entire civ, only the behavior of the individual.
-Values, i.e law, nature, friendship, martial prowess, don't appear to have an effect on the hostility of a civ (minus worldgen wars over the value of truth or whatever).
-Ethics do have an effect on the overall hostility of a civ - KILL_NEUTRAL and KILL_ENEMY, if set to REQUIRED, will result in an immediate hostility to any enemy of the civ, even if said civ is normally lacking tags such as BABYSNATCHER or ITEM_THIEF that would make it immediately hostile to every other civ without said tokens. (although even then it seems like they can have those tokens without being immediately kill-on-sight if the KILL_ENEMY/NEUTRAL ethics aren't set to REQUIRED).

So, it seems that the reason goblin visitors are hostile to everyone is because their ethics and civ aren't being set to interact peacefully with the civ they're visiting; if they're actual citizens of the civ it appears to actually be set correctly to their new civ's ethics. Doesn't appear to be related to values or personality types as I previously thought. If the KILL_ENEMY/NEUTRAL ethic tokens are set to REQUIRED even citizens will go out of their way to try and kill you, should you come into their towns...or should they merely be visitors in another town. If either are merely ACCEPTABLE they're non-hostile.

[King Kitteh]

That makes sense. I think I heard about someone who made Goblins playable and was complaining about the Diplomats being scared of the citizens and vice versa. It turned out that the "required to attack" made them hostile towards eachother, (diplomats are considered neutrals).


Pretty sure this is still a bug though, because they should be attacking others when you aren't there, but it currently only seems to happen when you are there to witness.

To fix this issue it should be simple enough to set [ETHIC:KILL_NEUTRAL:] and [ETHIC:KILL_ENEMY:] to ACCEPTABLE instead of REQUIRED.