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[Elephant Parade]

Oh, and I oppose Proposal 80.

and I oppose Proposal 82. For obvious reasons.

Your reasons aren't obvious at all! Support 82.

[FallacyofUrist]

... it defeats the point of the mafia game.

Plus there's no way to begin a new one after it finishes. And the reward isn't good enough.

[Elephant Parade]

... it defeats the point of the mafia game.

Plus there's no way to begin a new one after it finishes. And the reward isn't good enough.

The point of the mafia game shouldn't be to determine the victor of the greater game. If you want to start a new game/improve the reward, launch a proposal to do so.

[FallacyofUrist]

... it defeats the point of the mafia game.

Plus there's no way to begin a new one after it finishes. And the reward isn't good enough.

The point of the mafia game shouldn't be to determine the victor of the greater game.

Now how should we determine the victor of the greater game?

[Elephant Parade]

... it defeats the point of the mafia game.

Plus there's no way to begin a new one after it finishes. And the reward isn't good enough.

The point of the mafia game shouldn't be to determine the victor of the greater game.

Now how should we determine the victor of the greater game?

I dunno, but it shouldn't be determined by one random, easily-broken subgame!

[FallacyofUrist]

Easily broken. Demonstrate, Elephant Parade. I'm thinking you want to make it not count as a victory because you're Mafia and you don't think you can win.

[crazyabe]

Elephant Parade

[Elephant Parade]

Easily broken. Demonstrate, Elephant Parade. I'm thinking you want to make it not count as a victory because you're Mafia and you don't think you can win.

You're wrong, then. Victory via Nomic Mafia exploit would be frustrating for the losing side—as would victory through any other exploit. When we introduce a win condition, it should be agreed-upon and protected from loopholes, and it should be clear that it's a win condition.

As for demonstrating, heck no. I don't want either side to break the game. If I do demonstrate a game-breaking method, it'll be via a proposal that prevents it from occurring.

Elephant Parade

Have you ever played Mafia?

If not, I'll give you a tip: you need to ask questions. Voting someone without ever talking to them is (rightly) seen as suspicious; it's considered to be the act of an absurdly lazy mafioso, who knows who the criminals are and doesn't want to pretend to scumhunt. I'm not going to assume that that's what's going on here, since I don't think you've ever played Mafia, but you should keep it in mind.

[TopHat]

I considered letting the victors get a free amendment to the mafia rules to apply to future games (excepting rules involving the Master achievements, of course) but went with a simpler solution instead. Make a Variant if you want to.
I think what Elephant Parade is referring to by 'broken' is more a case of simply unfair, I.e. those with more mafia experience (who might that be, I wonder?) being more likely to win the game.

On the Mafia front, I'm starting to get very suspicious of you, FallacyofUrist. You seem very quick and eager to get lynching, and without good reason - if Elephant Parade supporting my proposal is evidence he's mafia, what of me proposing it in the first place?

[Elephant Parade]

I think what Elephant Parade is referring to by 'broken' is more a case of simply unfair, I.e. those with more mafia experience (who might that be, I wonder?) being more likely to win the game.

That's also a huge issue, but I was talking more about the various ridiculous rule-based exploits; most of them would require new proposals, but I'll share one that doesn't: an alliance with both Town and Mafia members is guaranteed to win. That's pretty dumb.

[FallacyofUrist]

Good point, TopHat.

An alliance with Town and Mafia players is guaranteed to win, you say?
... okay, point, victory sharing from alliances can be a bit broken when it comes to Mafia.

Proposal 83 - To Prevent Against Mafia Alliance Victory Shenanigans: When any player wins as a direct result of the victory conditions present within Rule 50, all players, other than the Judge, that do not share that player's alignment, cannot win as a result of being in an Alliance with said player.

[FallacyofUrist]

All players who are Town win when there are no Mafia players in the game.
All players who are Mafia win when the number of players who are Town is less than or equal to the number of players who are Mafia.

Also, how is this not clearly a win condition?

[Elephant Parade]

All players who are Town win when there are no Mafia players in the game.
All players who are Mafia win when the number of players who are Town is less than or equal to the number of players who are Mafia.

Also, how is this not clearly a win condition?

It can be interpreted as a subgame win, not a "true" win.

[FallacyofUrist]

... does the rule define "subgame" at all?

[Person]

This game of mafia is currently rather unique in that new players get assigned a role.

53: Whenever a given player joins this game for the first time, the Judge rolls 1d4 or does the equivalent with random.org. On a result of one, the player becomes Mafia(and is informed of this via PM), and all Mafia players in the game are PM'd a list of the Mafia players in the game. On any other result, the player becomes Town and is informed of this via PM.

I can't really anticipate what that might bring to the table, but I've noticed something. Being excluded from the current mafia game by death isn't quite permanent. If a player is forfeits the Nomic, they can rejoin as a new player. As a result, they could rejoin the mafia game. Just an exploit I noticed. Of course they'd probably be giving up a lot to do so, but mafia IS currently the only win condition after all.

Rules lawyer away! Also I'm fairly certain a mafia win is a full game win. Also, if you want to vote on (or kill if applicable) "Lord Uln 'Proposes Uselessness' the eighteenth", you'll need to use their title. Otherwise it won't be valid.