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[Person]

Given the quantity of proposals this turn, I'm going to clear things up a bit by showing the current votes on them. These aren't the final totals of course, but I figured putting everything in one place would do some good. On the note of my own votes, I now oppose Proposal 13, and support Proposal 14.

Proposal 7: Alter Rule 20 to read as follows: In order for a proposal to pass, a proposal must have votes on it from at least half of the players in the game, in addition to any previous proposals.

Proposer: Person

Supported by: Person

Opposed by: No one

Current total: 1 to 0

Proposal 8: When a new player joins, the first vote they make will be twice as valuable. It is still a single vote, but it counts as two.

Proposer: Person

Supported by: Person

Opposed by: No one

Current total: 1 to 0

Proposal 9: With the exception of the first and second posts, players are not allowed to edit their posts in this thread.

Proposer: Person

Supported by: No one

Opposed by: Person

Current total: 0 to 1

Proposal 10: Edited posts are ignored during the counting of votes, and proposals made in edited posts are invalid.

Proposer: Person

Supported by: Person, Iituem

Opposed by: No one

Current total: 2 to 0

Proposal 11: Electors may vote in a new Holy Emperor with a clear majority vote, and may oust an Emperor with another clear majority vote.  Only Elector Votes count.

Proposer: Iituem

Supported by: Iituem, Person, crazyabe

Opposed by: No one

Current total: 3 to 0

Proposal 12: The first person to post a haiku in this thread each turn gets one Haiku Point. A Haiku Point may be spent at any time to make a currently active proposal no longer supportable(players cannot support it) for the remainder of the current turn.

Proposer: FallacyofUrist

Supported by: FallacyofUrist

Opposed by: Person, crazyabe

Current total: 1 to 2

Proposal 13: Crazyabe will be called "The Forum Idiot" Until this Status is changed. "The  Forum Idiot" Is exempt from any and all Penaltys do to idiotic mistakes, up to and including: Miss spelling, Miss numbering, And Forgetting about this game. "The Forum Idiot" Can NOT Vote other then to Oppose a proposal.

Proposer: crazyabe

Supported by: crazyabe

Opposed by: FallacyofUrist, Person, Iituem

Current total: 1 to 3

Proposal 14: In order for a proposal to be passed, it must have supporting votes from at least two separate individuals.

Proposer: Sensei

Supported by: Sensei, Person

Opposed by: No one

Current total: 2 to 0

If there's any inaccuracies in my vote counts now or in the future, do make sure to point them out.

[Iituem]

Proposal 15: A player may only propose one proposition per turn.

Otherwise Person is going to have the Emperor vote in his pocket.

[FallacyofUrist]

Proposal 15: A player may only propose one proposition per turn.

Otherwise Person is going to have the Emperor vote in his pocket.

I support Proposal 15.
~~~
But it'll take effect after it comes into play, which would be next turn, right?

Proposal 16: Modify Rule 13: The game ends after 30 turns.

[Person]

All proposals seem to come into play at the end of the turn. Now that I think about it, maybe we shouldn't have any Holy Imperial Elector Votes yet. Then again, rules are allowed to be retroactive right now, and that's how the current vote total was calculated. As the judge, my current ruling on Rule 18 is that it retroactively applies to all proposals, including itself. If anyone disputes that ruling, now would be the time to say so. Feel free to offer points for and against the current Holy Imperial Elector Vote count.

When making your arguments, consult rule 14, which currently reads as follows. Of particular importance are the parts in bold.

14: At the end of a turn, the votes on all proposals are counted. Any proposal in which the majority of the votes are supporting is passed, and the nomic is changed according to that proposal's instructions. A majority vote is defined as more than half of the votes cast.

Is the nomic changed at the end of the turn? Or is it changed at the start of the next? This is the key question too keep in mind. To me, it seems that it occurs before the turn ends. This is of particular importance because the ruling will set a precedent.

We might want to modify this rule again soon, if it poses a problem.

The way I look at it, there are 3 potential possibilities.

1: The proposal becomes a rule at the start of the next turn(which is this turn). This prevents it from applying to past proposals. If this is the case, rule 14 should be modified to specify this. I picked this one for now, as I feel it fits the spirit of the rules best.

2: The proposal becomes a rule the moment it passes, allowing for proposals in the same turn to award Holy Imperial Elector Votes. This is probably the most correct ruling, but that's debatable.

3: The proposal becomes a rule at any point, but is treated retroactively, applying to all past proposals (which would only be itself, given that it was the first proposal in the game.) This is the current ruling.

The total Holy Imperial Elector Votes would read as following in each instance.

1: No one has any Holy Imperial Elector Votes.

2: Person: 2 Holy Imperial Elector Votes. Iituem: 0 Holy Imperial Elector Votes(They proposed the rule, so they lose out in this case). Sensei: 1 Holy Imperial Elector Vote.

3: Person: 2 Holy Imperial Elector Votes. Iituem: 1 Holy Imperial Elector Vote. Sensei: 1 Holy Imperial Elector Vote.

Also, I support proposals 15 and 16.

[Person]

Well, in any event I guess its time to start turn 3 then.

Proposal 7: Alter Rule 20 to read as follows: In order for a proposal to pass, a proposal must have votes on it from at least half of the players in the game, in addition to any previous proposals.

Proposer: Person

Supported by: Person

Opposed by: No one

Total: Passes 1 to 0

Proposal 8: When a new player joins, the first vote they make will be twice as valuable. It is still a single vote, but it counts as two.

Proposer: Person

Supported by: Person

Opposed by: No one

Total: Passes 1 to 0

Proposal 9: With the exception of the first and second posts, players are not allowed to edit their posts in this thread.

Proposer: Person

Supported by: No one

Opposed by: Person

Total: Does not pass 0 to 1

Proposal 10: Edited posts are ignored during the counting of votes, and proposals made in edited posts are invalid.

Proposer: Person

Supported by: Person, Iituem

Opposed by: No one

Total: Passes 2 to 0

Proposal 11: Electors may vote in a new Holy Emperor with a clear majority vote, and may oust an Emperor with another clear majority vote.  Only Elector Votes count.

Proposer: Iituem

Supported by: Iituem, Person, crazyabe

Opposed by: No one

Total: Passes 3 to 0

Proposal 12: The first person to post a haiku in this thread each turn gets one Haiku Point. A Haiku Point may be spent at any time to make a currently active proposal no longer supportable(players cannot support it) for the remainder of the current turn.

Proposer: FallacyofUrist

Supported by: FallacyofUrist

Opposed by: Person, crazyabe

Total: Does not pass 1 to 2

Proposal 13: Crazyabe will be called "The Forum Idiot" Until this Status is changed. "The  Forum Idiot" Is exempt from any and all Penaltys do to idiotic mistakes, up to and including: Miss spelling, Miss numbering, And Forgetting about this game. "The Forum Idiot" Can NOT Vote other then to Oppose a proposal.

Proposer: crazyabe

Supported by: crazyabe

Opposed by: FallacyofUrist, Person, Iituem

Total: Does not pass 1 to 3

Proposal 14: In order for a proposal to be passed, it must have supporting votes from at least two separate individuals.

Proposer: Sensei

Supported by: Sensei, Person

Opposed by: No one

Total: Passes 2 to 0

Proposal 15: A player may only propose one proposition per turn.

Proposer: Iituem

Supported by: Iituem, FallacyofUrist, Person

Opposed by: No one.

Total: Passes 3 to 0.

Proposal 16: Modify Rule 13: The game ends after 30 turns.

Proposer: FallacyofUrist

Supported by: FallacyofUrist, Person

Opposed by: No one.

Total: Passes 2 to 0.

From here on out, you can only make one proposal per day, so make it count! Also I've carefully considered how rule 1 works, and turn 2 was technically the first turn where its possible to earn Holy Imperial Elector Votes. That's why our collections of Holy Imperial Elector Votes is the way it is. This is debatable of course, so feel free to do so. However, I had to make a temporary decision.

[FallacyofUrist]

Proposal 17: At the start of each turn, all players gain 500$ each. Currently, $ may be spent at any time as follows:
500$: Acquire one Holy Imperial Elector Vote.
1000$: You may propose an additional proposal this turn. This supersedes the effect of whatever rule was created/modified by Proposal 15.
5000$: Target a player. Any proposals that player submits this turn cannot be supported by any players other than that player.

[crazyabe]

I Support Proposal 17.


Proposal 18: crazyabe Will forever on be referred to as "Lord Uln 'Proposes Uselessness' the eighteenth".

[Person]

I support Proposal 17. We really need a currency or score mechanic honestly. 500 feels like a bit much, but I see no problems with it. I'll also support proposal 18, just because why not. So you two don't have any problem with the ruling on Holy Imperial Elector Votes then? (Boy is that title a mouth full.)

To avoid future complications of the same nature, I'm making another boring proposal.

Proposal 19: Amend rule 14 to read as follows. At the end of a turn, the votes on all valid proposals are counted. Any proposals in which the majority of the votes are supporting are passed, and the nomic is changed according to those proposals' instructions. If a proposal does not pass, it has failed. The changes occur at the start of the next turn, before anything else. A majority vote is defined as more than half of the votes cast.

That should be the final needed modification to rule 14 for some time yet. The changes include how to refer to a proposal that does not pass, when the changes within a proposal are enacted, and a few minor grammatical improvements.

[Iituem]

I Support Proposals 17 & 18, whilst opposing 19.  I feel that there is enough implicit understanding not to need the rule, but if anyone disagrees just support the proposal.

Proposal 20: The Holy Emperor receives a grace additional income of 100$ per player who has not left/been exiled from the Empire, representative of tax and Imperial administration.

Additionally, I would like to Nominate Sensei as Holy Emperor, contributing my one vote to the pool.

I would also like clarification re: Proposal 17; Does the $500 purchase guarantee a vote only for that turn, or in perpetuity?  The spirit suggests the former, but it is not clear.

[Person]

It looks to me like it just gives you a single one use vote, much like a successful proposal. It is a bit ambiguous though. Holy Imperial Electoral Votes are basically consumables that don't expire until they're used, more or less. You can keep them as long as you like, and gain as many as you like, but use them and they're gone. The manner in which you gain them is likely irrelevant, as long as it is through a method legal in the rules of course.

[FallacyofUrist]

I oppose Proposal 20 because of a lot of undefined stuff.

[Iituem]

In effect, the rest of that sentence is not important, merely that the Emperor receives 100$ per player per turn.

[Sensei]

I support 17 and 20, oppose 18 and 19.

Proposal 21: Anyone who votes in opposition to a proposal, must apologize to the proposer. Otherwise, that vote is not counted.

[FallacyofUrist]

I oppose Proposal 21 and Proposal 18.

[Iituem]

I support 17 and 20, oppose 18 and 19.

Proposal 21: Anyone who votes in opposition to a proposal, must apologize to the proposer. Otherwise, that vote is not counted.

Clarification:  Are you abandoning Proposal 19?