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Author Topic: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers  (Read 4771 times)

Eagleon

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Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« on: December 31, 2015, 12:55:19 pm »

So every single embark, I end up forgetting to define a pen/pasture for my grazers, and they inevitably end up starving to death, along with whatever livestock the migrants haul along as pets.

It makes no sense. Why would a grazing animal allowed the entire span of the map starve to death with grass under its hooves? How is this a thing? The pen/pasture system is broken. The reason it exists is to make livestock management easier, not more annoying. Having to micromanage pastures just to ensure animals don't starve is downright weird.

Allowing animals to graze free-range is my first and primary suggestion to fix this. I frankly don't care if my wool-carder has to walk halfway across the map to grab a sheep for shearing, even if that puts him in danger, so long as pets aren't randomly starving to death under their owner's noses. Furthermore, animals assigned to a pen or pasture that are running out of food should just hop the fence and run away, like real life. This should be a factor of how domesticated/trained they are - respecting the pasture boundries should be a matter of training or the quality of the fence.

That brings me to my next suggestion. Actual fences and coops. How this would work is some degree of abstraction between taking raw materials like a log and putting down fence posts, to making fence posts in the carpenter and putting down fence posts [personally, I'm in favor of being able to select any material/item, for fences made from stone, leather, meat, spears, arrows, piled skulls, vermin remains, cages with animals inside triggerable by traps, floodgates and windows for absurd whale aquariums, etc.] but it would all rely on the expanding room interface. You select it from the build menu, put its center point anywhere on the map, and + away until you're satisfied with its size. A dwarf simply takes whatever tool or material you're using, and walks the perimeter laying down fence. If they run out of material, they go and fetch more as a new job. More than one person can build the fence, sort of like the engraving job. You can even factor in room quality based on how good the dwarf is at fence building (trapping? would be nice if this skill had some use other than for small animals) and let that and animal size determine how easy it is for penned animals to jump the fence. For elephants, you either need a legend building your fence, or to turn to constructions.

Additionally, you could have an option in the building "room" menu to reenforce a fence later, in case you started out with wood but now have such an abundance of iron that you want to go back and use to make your regular pastures work for your bigger critters.

For chicken coops (or flyers in general, who should need enclosures to avoid running away more than anything else but currently are weirdly the most manageable livestock), they should walk around each tile inside as well, laying grate-like constructions above to represent a cage. Alternatively, the animal handlers/gelders can clip wings.

Doing all this would allow predators, poachers, and carnivorous pets to be a little less serene with your livestock, with much less player intervention than requiring everyone to build impenetrable house-sized walls for animals. It would allow players to balance risk vs. reward for their grazing animals, would make for more reasonable towns instead of having critters bunched up in the city streets, and would also give a reasonable way to cordon off the underground from things like crundles while still making it comparatively dangerous against the building destroyers there.
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Deboche

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2016, 08:07:36 am »

Grazing doesn't require micromanagement since .37. Define a pasture. When you buy animals from caravans, assign them to it.

In a way, you can already fence animals in. Use walls and a door and make it forbidden for pets.
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MobRules

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2016, 07:44:53 am »

I guess designating a pasture once, and assigning all grazers to it, doesn't feel micro-managy to me? The complexity you are proposing adding to the enclosure system seems more micro-managy to me than what we have now. Unless I'm misunderstanding you?
'
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 02:07:42 pm »

Providing you have the patience and resources to grow enough crops as well as clear cages out of seeds (quite tedious) nearly all grazers can be fed from cages their entire lives (and due to dwarven quantum physics, all live in the same cage too) without fighting at all. Then with a surrounding space, all the females can be released into the enclosed space to become pregnant until they get hungry then returned, pregnant animals will give birth *inside* the cage placing the young *outside* to be put back into your quantum animal wormhole.

I know it goes against what you're saying but micromanaging animals that cannot pasture is a must though on glacial/tundra maps for the upkeep of musk ox elk and reindeer taken from the local environment, i do like your pen fence idea, since the fences could have some application decoratively where fortifications wouldn't be appropriate (outside eating/meeting/prayer areas come to mind) on top of animal containment without erecting enormous walls to discourage wandering animals, but my concerns are that it would just be uneconomic especially if made entirely out of wood logs even at 2 or 3 a piece since its a staple of fuel and bed furniture industry.

I would hope you would not be offended but i have a counter suggestion for a 'less micro-y animal pen'

Pen

A 3x3 *expandable in build menu using the UHKM* building that allows dwarves on orders to directly feed animals inside by bringing crops/leave to graze and extracting contained animals (from the exterior fence) without ever having to set foot inside to touch said animals, reducing the walking time and increasing efficiency without cage management.

WWW
WGW
WWW

Building wall - W, Grass/floorspace - G (suitable for one animal only at a cost of 4 - 5 block or log resources)

Excellent for pig farming since they consume nothing yet are easily fetch-able for milking/slaughter, would accommodate larger animals well especially if seeds could be automatically collected from the building (again from the exterior wall) because it doesn't have the containment rules of a cage and the seeds + food are instead deposited in the building (allowing stockpile links to prevent overlapping)

Animals are still constrained by space allocated, tight conditions still promote fighting, large pens require lots of resources and cannot be pathed through or anything else placed inside as a downside, animals inside are not hostile to outsiders, and animals that lose domesticity status (GCS) will automatically be ejected.

> Only accommodates tamed/domestic non-pet animals, attracts building destroyers, and otherwise protects from non sapient predators not intelligent enough to extract and slaughter/steal the animals contained without smashing it down, zombies can smash the building from the inside.
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Eagleon

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2016, 03:51:13 pm »

I guess designating a pasture once, and assigning all grazers to it, doesn't feel micro-managy to me? The complexity you are proposing adding to the enclosure system seems more micro-managy to me than what we have now. Unless I'm misunderstanding you?
'
The point is for them to not starve to death if you don't want to bother in the first place (or simply overlook one or two births), and to keep from either having to build ungainly construction projects (requiring special attention for corner spots, gate access, doors, etc.) or from having dwarves run back and forth constantly re-pasturing animals. Especially if these fences could be assigned to specific kinds of animals rather than individuals, it would reduce the amount of commands and time invested for the one simple task. The system we have right now just feels very game-y, if you can pardon the pun - walls or pits used to permanently fence animals are the same size and barrier strength to invaders as actual full-sized buildings and moats, and excessive for tame regions where it doesn't make sense to guard your livestock so closely (yet).

And the point still remains that adventure mode cities don't even have pastures yet, and it's going to be very weird coming across one when they do only to find them made of hill-sized fortifications. Why not fences?
Providing you have the patience and resources to grow enough crops as well as clear cages out of seeds (quite tedious) nearly all grazers can be fed from cages their entire lives (and due to dwarven quantum physics, all live in the same cage too) without fighting at all. Then with a surrounding space, all the females can be released into the enclosed space to become pregnant until they get hungry then returned, pregnant animals will give birth *inside* the cage placing the young *outside* to be put back into your quantum animal wormhole.
I don't want quantum animal wormholes. I like my cows mooving around being cows, I think the current cages are a lot ridiculous.
I know it goes against what you're saying but micromanaging animals that cannot pasture is a must though on glacial/tundra maps for the upkeep of musk ox elk and reindeer taken from the local environment, i do like your pen fence idea, since the fences could have some application decoratively where fortifications wouldn't be appropriate (outside eating/meeting/prayer areas come to mind) on top of animal containment without erecting enormous walls to discourage wandering animals, but my concerns are that it would just be uneconomic especially if made entirely out of wood logs even at 2 or 3 a piece since its a staple of fuel and bed furniture industry.
Funnily enough I was thinking more like 9 tiles to allow for a small coop that would feed two or three chickens, so the size of your building or one larger for just a fence. One log should make many, many fence posts, though it might feel like a little much for wire, and individual items like piled skulls should probably take more work to build based on their weight. I would definitely want it to be possible for dwarves to come by and feed them, it'd be more use for grain plants, but I'm just not feeling the argument that because one biome has scarce resources, we shouldn't put something in that uses resources.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2016, 03:56:21 pm by Eagleon »
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cochramd

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2016, 04:28:41 pm »

I guess designating a pasture once, and assigning all grazers to it, doesn't feel micro-managy to me? The complexity you are proposing adding to the enclosure system seems more micro-managy to me than what we have now. Unless I'm misunderstanding you?
'
The point is for them to not starve to death if you don't want to bother in the first place (or simply overlook one or two births), and to keep from either having to build ungainly construction projects (requiring special attention for corner spots, gate access, doors, etc.) or from having dwarves run back and forth constantly re-pasturing animals.
Then slaughter them and be done with it. You want grazing livestock, embark somewhere where there's plenty of grass (or alternatively, cultivate cave moss) and make pastures for them. Now, that said, being able to make fences to enforce those pastures, or having a pen as FantasticDorf suggested, would be very handy. I too hate having to repasture animals for any reason.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2016, 05:07:12 pm »

One log should make many, many fence posts, though it might feel like a little much for wire, and individual items like piled skulls should probably take more work to build based on their weight.

Though the thought of creating barb wire dorf defences, lined with troll skull totem is appealing but having the wood miraculously split into say 5 pieces would be abusable and many constructions of fences would be preferred to walls or building out of raw logs or even stone blocks. Leading to ugly cascades of fence houses because players want what is most efficient foremost. Why go to the effort of anything else when i can throw these fences together for +100% returns for only 1 log, 5 logs could build a 1 story enclosed house in dirt.

but I'm just not feeling the argument that because one biome has scarce resources, we shouldn't put something in that uses resources.

One example of a biome, not to mention relevant glaciers, deserts, and areas with extreme verticality and rockiness (such as a mountain) with no typical access to grass or very little grass to meet the demands of your grazers without downsizing your livestock or cultivating cave moss in the caverns/soil layers in which time without throwing them into a cage to survive via micromanagement will starve to death.
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Bumber

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2016, 06:57:35 am »

Though the thought of creating barb wire dorf defences, lined with troll skull totem is appealing but having the wood miraculously split into say 5 pieces would be abusable and many constructions of fences would be preferred to walls or building out of raw logs or even stone blocks. Leading to ugly cascades of fence houses because players want what is most efficient foremost. Why go to the effort of anything else when i can throw these fences together for +100% returns for only 1 log, 5 logs could build a 1 story enclosed house in dirt.
It gonna get smashed to splinters when the trolls come 'round.
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therahedwig

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2016, 09:07:47 am »

How about as an alternative, a 'herder' dwarf. It'd be a farmer type, who could optionally have a set of dogs(or perhaps the amount of dogs can determine the maximum amount of flock.

They could even move your flocks off the map for grazing once per season, but with the danger vs regular pastures that he may sometimes return with less animals, and of course that you can't slaughter the animals that are away...
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Eagleon

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2016, 01:47:24 pm »

How about as an alternative, a 'herder' dwarf. It'd be a farmer type, who could optionally have a set of dogs(or perhaps the amount of dogs can determine the maximum amount of flock.

They could even move your flocks off the map for grazing once per season, but with the danger vs regular pastures that he may sometimes return with less animals, and of course that you can't slaughter the animals that are away...
I like this idea, as well as hunters for a more realistic option for frozen biomes. It might come in with armies, seems like that'd be the best time to put it into play.
Though the thought of creating barb wire dorf defences, lined with troll skull totem is appealing but having the wood miraculously split into say 5 pieces would be abusable and many constructions of fences would be preferred to walls or building out of raw logs or even stone blocks. Leading to ugly cascades of fence houses because players want what is most efficient foremost. Why go to the effort of anything else when i can throw these fences together for +100% returns for only 1 log, 5 logs could build a 1 story enclosed house in dirt.
I wouldn't think they'd act like constructions at all. Building on top of them shouldn't be an option, though beds in cages should be at the typical penalty of overlapping rooms and sleeping outside - because why not, could be fun for a challenge. The idea is for them to not really be that hard for a determined animal to scramble out of or into, just for domesticated/trained animals to respect them as more trouble than they're worth. Well-built fences should result in injuries to unintelligent critters trying to cross, barriers that any intelligent creature should have BUILDING_DESTROYER for, and in general be the same level of worthless for defense as actual fences - climbers should laugh, people with axes and picks and hammers and a disrespect for you as a neighbor should laugh, and at most, they'd give another source of destruction for upright spikes. They might also slow invaders down a tick to allow patrols to intercept, but it all depends on how dedicated you are to training your dwarves to build and repair fences.
One example of a biome, not to mention relevant glaciers, deserts, and areas with extreme verticality and rockiness (such as a mountain) with no typical access to grass or very little grass to meet the demands of your grazers without downsizing your livestock or cultivating cave moss in the caverns/soil layers in which time without throwing them into a cage to survive via micromanagement will starve to death.
Ok.... Food is still the easiest resource to gain in the game, even easier than water. There's a reason Antarctica isn't known for its cheese. Those regions should be hard to live in, that's why not many civilizations in real life have mastered what's required to do so, and by and large the ones that have relied more on trade than agriculture if they even grew beyond what hunting could sustain. What's the problem here again?
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2016, 03:36:31 pm »

Ok.... Food is still the easiest resource to gain in the game, even easier than water. There's a reason Antarctica isn't known for its cheese. Those regions should be hard to live in, that's why not many civilizations in real life have mastered what's required to do so, and by and large the ones that have relied more on trade than agriculture if they even grew beyond what hunting could sustain. What's the problem here again?

Those biomes have the least natural grass for pasturing, im not sure why you are talking about 'ease of food and water'. The example biomes that i listed are notable examples of areas that don't support typical pasture practices and therefore require micromanagement as mandatory without access to cave moss which can be a hit/miss operation to excavate and find caverns in order to force growth. (In relation to my original point, when you were stating that you were unconvinced on the argument based off 1 biome example given so i merely stated more)

Chilled Antarctica brand pig-cheese roasts are a favorite in my dwarven civilization, there is only as much a restriction on grazers as there is on your current plant stocks and dwarven memory to feed said grazers.
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cochramd

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2016, 11:02:11 pm »

I like this idea, as well as hunters for a more realistic option for frozen biomes. It might come in with armies, seems like that'd be the best time to put it into play.
I dunno, they seem to farm caribou and muskox in the arctic just fine.
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Niddhoger

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2016, 12:18:39 am »

I really hate to say this, but just butcher them.  Every migrant wave I check to reassign labors, and I wind up butchering all non-pets.  I bring no food on embark and just butcher my pack animals asap too (they are seriously not worth keeping).  They never bring any animals worth while, unless you want to start a yarn-farm or add another egg-layer to our micromanage (why can't we just toggle the nest boxes not to collect like beehives!?)  If they get free roam, you'll just get annoyed that they roam freely into a pack of alligators or pick fights with honey badgers.  Then goblins/werebeasts will shred then the second they appear. 

As for options... there is -always- cave moss.  I don't think I've ever seen more than one dry cavern, and from there you can either wall in a section of the caverns or cause some flooding for muddy stone (if you lack any soil).  Presto! Underground pasture. If water-works intimidates you, you can always use a bucket brigade and pit/pond some stone. 

Its just apart of hte game, and not even the most tedious micro-managey part.  That goes to uniforms/military and designating stockpiles (links to force use of specific materials/decoration jobs and splitting up food types).   The only thing I'd change would be to add an option to add all animals of that species when assigning pasture space.  So I can move all my sheep in one press, or move all the domesticated cave-crocs to the dining room for adoption easier. 
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Deboche

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2016, 11:32:06 am »

The only thing I'd change would be to add an option to add all animals of that species when assigning pasture space.  So I can move all my sheep in one press, or move all the domesticated cave-crocs to the dining room for adoption easier.
Hell yes, though it's an interface thing and not likely to change soon. This and similar problems with lists of things - stocks screen, assigning dwarfs to burrows, etc - could all be solved by a "search" tool.
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cochramd

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Re: Better Pens/Pastures and Grazers
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2016, 07:50:08 pm »

(why can't we just toggle the nest boxes not to collect like beehives!?)
Here, here. We would all appreciate being able to specify nestboxes for breeding and not just egg laying.

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So I can move all my sheep in one press, or move all the domesticated cave-crocs to the dining room for adoption easier.
Hold up. Why on earth do you want anyone to adopt your cave crocs?
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