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[taptap]

the game's meta can be easily broken by playing carefully

I love difficult games (and tend to be a little masochistic with my fortress placement) but the key to enjoying DF isn't expecting to be constantly challenged, it's to, and Bay12 Forums won't like to hear this, care about your dwarves.

<3. Very much this.

Skilled and careful play can reduce most challenges the game throws at you. Modding/challenge play may change this somewhat, but fundamentally the game becomes easy, when you play in a controlled manner (and I honestly don't see, how this can change). I did lose forts, but this was a) while learning the ropes or b) due to being careless/miscalculating. New plans, game versions and FPS were by far the most important reason to abandon forts in older versions, since messing around with dfhack and optimising my forts a bit better I can keep playing even after 70 years with more or less stable FPS. The mythologising of DF as the game, you inevitably lose and lose again, has little to do with my experience, it is just a fancy excuse to pull that self-destruction lever. What makes it possible to enjoy DF beyond the point, where invasions become a nuisance for the hauling jobs they generate, is the possibility to play it as Dwarf Fortress - Subterranean Engineers (you can build a computer in DF!) or as story generator (one of the best stories: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143405.0).

@pfunk: It is perfectly possible to meet invasions in open battle. Drawbridges, traps etc. just allow you to remove the necessity to do so each and every time. It simply is not fun to handle seasonal raids, when you play a fort over decades. I probably would mod out sieges, when I had no way to avoid engaging them with architecture, not because I am unable to handle them (after all I train my haulers to max attributes for speedy hauling), but because it distracts from DF endgame content (aka engineering) too much. Making the kitchen work as intended and cook the damn royal jelly was more of a challenge in DF than all invasions anyway.

[Crab]

I agree. I am a new Dwarf Fortress player, I just retired my second fort after FPS death (~120 dwarfs on a 4x4 map, was getting down to ~45 and I didn't really have the heart to persevere), and I didn't really spoil myself very much. I looked up bridges in the wiki to see how they work, it mentions they're destroyer-proof so I used bridges instead of doors because that just seemed sensible, and then I was able to easily outlast all my sieges by just closing the bridge, having dwarves fire through fortifications, and survive on the absolutely copious amounts of food I could produce. It wasn't difficult at all; and certainly didn't match the expectations I formed from e.g. Boatmurdered. I'm just a little discouraged. I know that one can always go out and create active fun, but sometimes it can be nice to have "passive" fun as well, where you react to what the game throws at you rather than always initiating.

My suggestions are basically: let building destroyers smash thin (1-tile across, maybe?) walls and bridges; let non-dwarves dig at the very least dirt levels; encourage goblins to climb more; severely nerf traps; make goblins better warriors; and severely nerf farming.

Bridges are just OP, I don't think I need to detail why too much; but in general I feel like a sufficiently large invading force should have to be responded to with your own military. Anything which allows permanent turtling is a fun-destroyer, hence why bridge/wall-destroying, digging and climbing are musts. Traps are also just way too good, they decimate enemy front rows far too easily. Similarly, it takes ~3 years tops to have a legendary combat Dwarf, whereas goblin fighting skills don't seem to change, only numbers, so by year 5 one of my combat dwarfs could singlehandedly take out ~8 goblins with only a few scratches, it was disgusting. Goblin skills should rise with the wealth of your fortress, as logically goblins better at raiding will prioritize bigger rewards even if they're harder, whereas weak goblins would target easier rewards.

However, I feel like farming is one of the absolute biggest problems. I could feed a fortress of ~120 with ~5 planters without really putting much effort in on fertilizing. In contrast, in the European medieval ages, about 90% of the population was involved in agriculture, either at a primary level or processing the secondary products directly resulting from said agriculture. In Dwarf Fortress, it's about ~8%, maybe, and most are just unemployed haulers that feel useless. I want to be thinking "hooray!" when migrants turn up, not "meh, more useless mouths". Food is literally everywhere in DF. I'm not really sure what the solution is - needing more space for farms is definitely one, and I think needing to feed tame animals would be another. Maybe making fertilizer more complicated, and reducing plant growth time as well?

However, the broader problem is that specifically *underground* farming is OP, because ultimately it is what enables turtling. Even if bridges/walls were destroyable, I'm fairly sure I could whip up some sort of barrier given enough time and innovation, which allows me to turtle. In the European medieval era, you couldn't turtle forever (unless you were a coastal city) because you needed access to farmland - when your food stock ran out, the siege was lost. However, because I can have my farms *inside* my fortress, I can replenish food *during* a siege. This is a big problem, and I don't really see a way around it. Ideally, some sort of overground *only* activity should be necessary in some way to maintain your fort.

[omega_dwarf]

Rather than absolutely requiring you to go aboveground, something could be arranged where underground farming takes vastly more time and effort, and produces less, than aboveground farming - which makes sense, given that the crops have to grow without sunlight. I agree about the farming thing; try embarking without plump helmets or their seeds and see how far you get

(It's actually going pretty well for me; we're trapping animals from the caverns now, which is something I never used to do, but the suspense of it and being constantly low on food, at the mercy of the caverns while the undead ravage the overworld, is quite enjoyable.)

[cochramd]

I agree. I am a new Dwarf Fortress player, I just retired my second fort after FPS death (~120 dwarfs on a 4x4 map, was getting down to ~45 and I didn't really have the heart to persevere), and I didn't really spoil myself very much.

I'm running at 12-13 FPS, and expecting it to drop to 6-9 FPS when the next siege comes. Step up your game, son.

Traps are also just way too good, they decimate enemy front rows far too easily.

Having relied almost exclusively on stonefall and weapon traps for defense for the past in-game decade, I can assure you those traps are worth the effort you put into them without being OP. Cage traps are OP if you use them as a defense mechanism; they're about fair if you only use them to catch live animals like I do, so they could be fixed by being avoidable by anything with a decent intellect.

However, I feel like farming is one of the absolute biggest problems. I could feed a fortress of ~120 with ~5 planters without really putting much effort in on fertilizing. In contrast, in the European medieval ages, about 90% of the population was involved in agriculture, either at a primary level or processing the secondary products directly resulting from said agriculture. In Dwarf Fortress, it's about ~8%, maybe, and most are just unemployed haulers that feel useless. I want to be thinking "hooray!" when migrants turn up, not "meh, more useless mouths". Food is literally everywhere in DF. I'm not really sure what the solution is - needing more space for farms is definitely one, and I think needing to feed tame animals would be another. Maybe making fertilizer more complicated, and reducing plant growth time as well?

We don't see this in Dwarf Fortress because it's Dwarf Fortress, not Medieval Agriculture Simulator. Neither Tolkien nor Gygax nor those who followed in their footsteps went on great lengths about the agriculture of the dwarfs, but they did describe in detail their obsessions with rock, metal, digging, craftsmanship and fortresses. As such, the game focuses moreso on those things. That said, we do need to feed tame animals, and Toady has mentioned that he is planning to do something with soil quality that will make farming a bit more difficult.

However, the broader problem is that specifically *underground* farming is OP, because ultimately it is what enables turtling. Even if bridges/walls were destroyable, I'm fairly sure I could whip up some sort of barrier given enough time and innovation, which allows me to turtle. In the European medieval era, you couldn't turtle forever (unless you were a coastal city) because you needed access to farmland - when your food stock ran out, the siege was lost. However, because I can have my farms *inside* my fortress, I can replenish food *during* a siege. This is a big problem, and I don't really see a way around it. Ideally, some sort of overground *only* activity should be necessary in some way to maintain your fort.

With a well-placed sunroof, you can put an aboveground farm right next to your underground farm and not compromise your security in any way. The same could be done for any outdoor-only activity save for caravan access, which should be your primary motivator for breaking sieges in good time. And furthermore, I scoff at this notion that you should NEED to go outside; this is Dwarf Fortress.

[Crab]

I understand the need to select the correct level of abstraction between absolute realism and satisfying gameplay, but I'm just saying I think farming is currently not fun and not realistic, and that a small movement towards realism would also increase fun.

[greycat]

Rather than absolutely requiring you to go aboveground, something could be arranged where underground farming takes vastly more time and effort, and produces less, than aboveground farming

The Masterwork mod does this.  Also, this isn't the Suggestions forum.  If someone has serious gameplay suggestions for Toady One, they need to go there.

Meanwhile, if you want to change some aspects of your game, mod it.  There isn't a more moddable game in the entire world.

It wasn't difficult at all; and certainly didn't match the expectations I formed from e.g. Boatmurdered.

It's been a while since I read Boatmurdered, but I seem to recall their outer defense was a locked door.  Not a drawbridge.

Remember, losing is fun, so allow yourself the chance to lose if you want that kind of fun.

[PFunk]

We don't see this in Dwarf Fortress because it's Dwarf Fortress, not Medieval Agriculture Simulator.

Yet somehow Dwarf Fortress is also Aquifer simulator.

The point however is that we don't need to go hardcore medieval realism to increase the value of the gameplay elements in farming. I mean really. You read the opening blurb about your supplies being almost used up but from the moment you embark any semi experienced player has no fears about going hungry. In any city/village/base builder there should be some element of fear or concern over your early survival. However all you need to do is just farm a small underground plot and start pumping out Booze and Food on repeat and you'll never face a problem unless you forget to press R.

[taptap]

We don't see this in Dwarf Fortress because it's Dwarf Fortress, not Medieval Agriculture Simulator.

The point however is that we don't need to go hardcore medieval realism to increase the value of the gameplay elements in farming. I mean really. You read the opening blurb about your supplies being almost used up but from the moment you embark any semi experienced player has no fears about going hungry. In any city/village/base builder there should be some element of fear or concern over your early survival. However all you need to do is just farm a small underground plot and start pumping out Booze and Food on repeat and you'll never face a problem unless you forget to press R.

What is your problem - that it is too easy for you or for others? The first one can be changed easily: Don't do agriculture and only use imported food or even better feed the fort on dimple cup spawn / pig tail seed biscuits (or similar above ground crops, of which only the seeds can be used and need to be processed - you will need to play with the seed cap for this to work on a large scale)... there you have the need to stay connected to the outside / more challenging agriculture you ask for. Just do it and don't use egg-layers / non-grazers / current artificially low grazing requirements to circumvent agricultural needs. Enjoy.

[PFunk]

Right, so just don't use most of the food resources available to you. Don't use eggs, don't use underground plentiful crops, don't use most of it and just use very little of it all carefully chosen to be inefficient for its own sake.

That's a bit naff as a log term solution in my opinion. Really, whats wrong with me saying that being able to feed an entire fortress off of underground spawn that grows on mud you've splashed into existence with buckets of water is a bit imbalanced? Everyone says that the super hard stuff was a result of it being an alpha game but then when gameplay systems aren't balanced suddenly that's rational and not part of it being alpha? That's a bit contradictory I think.

[taptap]

Right, so just don't use most of the food resources available to you. Don't use eggs, don't use underground plentiful crops, don't use most of it and just use very little of it all carefully chosen to be inefficient for its own sake.

That's a bit naff as a log term solution in my opinion. Really, whats wrong with me saying that being able to feed an entire fortress off of underground spawn that grows on mud you've splashed into existence with buckets of water is a bit imbalanced? Everyone says that the super hard stuff was a result of it being an alpha game but then when gameplay systems aren't balanced suddenly that's rational and not part of it being alpha? That's a bit contradictory I think.

Yes, please try crops, that are closer to real life yields (without abusing bugged "unlimited food without input" husbandry) to test whether you would actually enjoy the harder agriculture you are asking for. We all know, that farming is hilariously unbalanced in DF. If you want to change that, why scoff at a proposal to personally try a more balanced conduct before calling for a general change?

[Crab]

Because imposing silly handicaps on ourselves isn't as satisfying as being genuinely pushed. Imagine you were a very good tennis player, and your local club didn't have anyone who could beat you. With a small investment, they could set up a coaching system and soon produce players who could genuinely push you and even beat you. Instead, they just say 'play with one hand behind your back'. Okay, that does technically make it more challenging, but that's missing the point. Thrill comes from having to use every skill you have to survive. Thrill doesn't come from playing down to your opponent. LoTR would have been very boring if Frodo could have destroyed the ring at any time using his magical hobbit powers but was choosing not to just to make the adventure exciting.

That is also why I think Toady ought to care. Ultimately, you're right, DF is a story maker first and foremost. I appreciate and respect that. But thrilling 'last stand' style sieges featuring bravery and derring-do make much more exciting stories than Turtle Simulator 2000.

[Urist Tilaturist]

DF is not Tolkien. That Tolkien did not care for agriculture is irrelevant. Flooding the fortress with food is just too easy right now in my experience and becoming "mediaeval agriculture simulator" would fix that and increase the !!fun!!, since the player is apparently supposed to lose.

Are there any good farming mods I could install to do this? It would be an easy way to add challenge and more engaging gameplay to a currently dull and simplistic section of the game, as well as making the need for ventilation with all those furnaces indoors.

[dennislp3]

I am making a food mod to fix this issue as this is a surprisingly common request with no mod to fill the gap. I have put version .1 out. I am gonna try and have a second update by the end of this week. My main focus is realism simply for the fact that before major advances in farming lots of people died from starvation (they do now as well...but that is a problem with humans and society more than crop outputs). Which means as long as I stick with as real of figures as I can the system should work itself out. Version .1 makes all plants have realistic growth times which require plants to be grown during proper seasons...most plants will get one or two harvests per year which means instead of constantly farming year round and feeding 100 dwarves with a 3x3 plot you actually have to make large fields and plan for storage of large amounts of food to last through the winter. A few can be abused a lot easier but this will lead to feeding your entire fort with one food which will not do well for dwarf happiness.

In the first version farming and eggs are nerfed like crazy for the most part. Milking/cheese/meat/gathering/fishing are still pretty OP though.

I can fix the gathering plants a bit by curbing how much you get from collected plants and I have ideas on how to nerf the meat industry and by extension the milking system a bit too. Which is what I will be focusing on in the next update.

Link is in my signature. I would link but I am on my stupid phone at the moment as internet is out at my place for the time being.

[PatrikLundell]

There are a number of issues with a more realistic farming approach (including the one Toady eventually is going to take):
- If we're going historic, you'd get very little done, since 90% or so of the fortress population would be fully caught up in the farming industry. You might get a bit of a break during winter, but that would probably largely be spent processing what's been harvested earlier.
- You'd probably have to basically shut down all other activities during harvest, since every hand would be needed at that time.
- Farming Simulator risks devolving into a mire of micro management, unless care is taken.
- I would expect a fair number of players don't find farming particularly interesting, and would like to focus on other things. Imagine the time it would take to do anything if 6½ of your starting 7 would have to spend their time farming or hunting, and add ½-2 migrants per wave to actually achieving things.

I'm not saying nerfing farming is wrong, only that you need to take some care to cater to the large number of DF players who are not playing survivalist mode and don't want to be bogged down in farming when they want to focus on other things. This can, of course, take the form of some kind of difficulty setting that either, in its simple form, controlled yield, or or a number of settings that allowed you to tweak various factors.

Personally I think the 0.42.X change to a higher consumption is a good thing, and I wouldn't mind further balancing. However, it wouldn't be Dwarf Fortress if you couldn't survive in a fully subterranean dwarf fortress.

If you are producing a mod, I'd suggest surface creatures only being capable of living "above ground" for longer periods, and adding/modding a wool producing subterranean creature [draltha?] (other than trolls, for which I don't think there are any dwarf approved shearing methods [does splatting release wool?]).

[PrimusRibbus]

I'm not entirely surprised to see this topic as Reddit and such places have been pushing this graphic for years:



It is one of the biggest lies in video games and pretty much sets up new players for disappointment.

Dwarf Fortress is not difficult. Dwarf Fortress just has a bad UI, poor documentation, and major bugs.
The majority of DF's perceived difficulty is due to how obtuse the new player experience seems when you don't have the wiki handy.