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Author Topic: New player expectations: where are the enemies?  (Read 22812 times)

Stragus

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New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« on: December 24, 2015, 03:37:03 pm »

First fortress (0.42.02)

I followed the quickstart guide. I absolutely loved the "Losing is fun" slogan, how DF was described as never knowing how you are going to lose. That sounded just great. And so the game was on Pause at least 95% of the time, as I binged on the wiki, planned everything, micro-managed to lose as little time as possible. It might have been my first fortress, but I wouldn't go down without a fight! I played with the constant tension of expecting some blow that would wipe out all my efforts.

I played for 3 in-game years, and it was... strangely peaceful, way too quiet. I think the most epic battle I witnessed was a hunter clubbing a moose with his wooden crossbow for 18 pages. I then remembered the guide had made me pick a "Serene" environment... As I also learned to read the world map, I realized I had surrounded myself with other friendly dwarven fortresses!

Silly me, so it was my fault all along, I had picked the most peaceful starting location possible. All right, time for a new fortress!


Second fortress (0.42.03)

After the totally uneventful first game, I sure was ready for some action! And so I generated about 60 world maps (in parallel, running 16 instances of DF to use all CPU cores), with Beasts and Savagery set at "Very high", and finally found what seemed like an impossible challenge: a crippled Dwarven civilization, a nice starting location right next to a cluster of 20 dark pits and 2 dark fortresses, without a single dwarven fortress nearby. Excellent!

Expecting a bloody struggle for survival, I approached this like a master Starcraft player would: seeking an optimal build, turtling in with traps (though I still have never seen a trap in action), rushing towards iron and steel, maintaining half of my population in military training. If the main entrance was too well defended, I thought perhaps they would dig through the soft soil of the top levels, emerging through the walls? I expected the first top level(s) might quickly fall to the enemy, and therefore designed various choke points further down. (I later learned they can't dig or even destroy walls, and that you can't order your military to disengage/retreat anyway)

As you may have guessed, nothing happened. Once, after two years, some werebeast appeared and managed to bruise a wood hauler before the 50-strong militia arrived (the beast's head was cut off on the first blow). But I'm right next door to the goblins! Where are they? They should be ambushing my wood cutters, harassing my workers, launching skirmishes, constantly probing my defenses, if not plainly dying at the fortress walls (goblins usually live short and violent lives).

I kept going, thinking that at least a higher wealth would attract even more powerful enemies. Greedy dragons? Envious extra-planar entities? Deities insulted by my earthly arrogance?

Two years later (total of 4 years), the wealth reached 15 millions, my fortress was named the capital and the monarch arrived. That's right, my little military outpost that has never seen battle, right in front of 20 dark pits and 2 dark fortresses, retired from all dwarven civilization, became the capital.


Conclusion

Honestly, I feel cheated. The wiki is describing a game where the Fun is brutal, where it's only a matter of time before any fortress fell, no matter how well you think you were prepared. That sounded fantastic, amazing! A game where constantly losing is at the core of the game! Where we would struggle to improve our tactics just to get a little further each time! Where only the greatest DF Grand Masters could expect to sustain large and wealthy fortresses!

If there are no enemies or dangers, then it's impossible to lose, and Dwarf Fortress ends up being similar to The Sims. Where did that "Losing is fun" slogan come from? How do people lose?

Did I miss something? With all the mods out there, did I miss a setting to change the difficulty from "Very easy" to "Insane"? How should I generate a world giving me a real challenge for survival? (please don't tell me to just dig deeper, I would like to lose while struggling for survival, not for acting stupidly...)

I am seriously baffled with this. Please tell me it's not just The Sims with dwarves...


Some other observations:
- When my wood hauler was bruised and resting, all my dwarves spammed "No Water Source" for weeks. Sure, it was winter and the river was frozen... But if the dwarves have the technology to manufacture steel, surely they have figured out how to melt ice and snow? Or was there a way to micro-manage a "put snow in bucket" job that I couldn't find?
- My military dwarves kept dropping food in their private rooms, which would rot and generate miasma.
- When I switched barracks for my 30 marksmen, they temporarily all came to the new library to drop their food on the floor. I immediately marked all of it for dumping, disabled general wood & mineral hauling, and yet my dwarves kept doing other things. Half of it rotted and generated a huge cloud of miasma.
- My outside watch tower/gate has been covered in vomit for two years. No one seems interested to clean it up, and it never goes away. Here's the second floor: http://www.rayforce.net/df000.png
- Apparently, bundles of fine prepared meals (roasts) outside a barrel are worth the square of the quantity? So a bundle of 50 fancy roasts is worth 2500 times a single fancy roast, but only 50 times when finally stored in a barrel.
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therahedwig

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2015, 03:56:23 pm »

Dig deeper.

For the questions:
- dwarves would prefer a well and some buckets please.
- known bug.
- the food is owned
- cleaming is iffy.
- known bug.
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MobRules

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2015, 04:31:28 pm »

It's a known bug that when military dwarves drop food from their backpacks, it's still marked as "owned", and thus no dwarf will move it. Only way around it is to either not have your military dwarves carry food, or else once they are carrying it, never change the order.

Generating world maps with savagry set to "high" can backfire, because possible opponents may get killed during worldgen in the more dangerous world. It's more reliable to use a standard worldgen, but then choose a dangerous location within that world.
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Is this biome reanimating? I really don't want to know what happens when "absurd numbers of megabeasts" is combined with "reanimating biomes".

Shonai_Dweller

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2015, 04:40:53 pm »

Default settings are for goblins to arrive after you reach population 80.
While some seen to turn up earlier on occasion it's not usual.
What was your population?

- ok, so you became the capital, probably had a high enough population then. Almost everyone else is getting sieges. What's the population of the fortresses?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 05:21:10 pm by Shonai_Dweller »
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Innocent Dave

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2015, 05:18:35 pm »

And so I generated about 60 world maps (in parallel, running 16 instances of DF to use all CPU cores)

Dear lord, how many cores do you have?

As noted above, you'll often get a rougher ride in an evil biome in a world where everyone hasn't been wiped out by the wildlife than in an overly savage world. For extra challenge, avoid using traps too much, don't turtle unless you have too, and try starting in evil biomes - resurrecting ones are particularly tricky.
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Urlance Woolsbane

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2015, 05:27:56 pm »

I am seriously baffled with this. Please tell me it's not just The Sims with dwarves...
Heh, heh, heh...
 
Nope. While it isn't that hard to build a sustainable fort, if you want to, any sufficiently !!DORFY!! endeavor should run the risk of catastrophic mayhem.

Tell me, did you encounter any Forgotten Beasts, any Titans? Did you find the Magma Sea?
 
And speaking of Forgotten beasts, if you want Goblin sieges (which happen fairly frequently, in the current version) to be insanely difficult (assuming they bring mounts, which they will, usually), try the following:

Paste this code to notepad, and save it in your raw/objects folder as "c_variation_new.txt"
Code: [Select]
c_variation_new

[OBJECT:CREATURE_VARIATION]


[CREATURE_VARIATION:FORGOTTEN]
[CV_NEW_TAG:EVIL]
[CV_NEW_TAG:COMMON_DOMESTIC]
[CV_NEW_TAG:PET]
[CV_NEW_TAG:MOUNT]
[CV_NEW_TAG:NAME:forgotten beast:forgotten beasts:forgotten beast]
[CV_NEW_TAG:PREFSTRING:eldritch natures]
[CV_NEW_TAG:PREFSTRING:nightmarish appearances]
[CV_NEW_TAG:PREFSTRING:terrible majesty]


Then, open up Dwarf Fortress.exe in a hex-editor, and search for "[NAME:forgotten beast:forgotten beasts:forgotten beast]" Replace that tag with "[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:FORGOTTEN]" Blank out the leftover characters with hex values of "00", save, and voila! Now you will know why you fear the Greenskins.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 05:30:53 pm by Urlance Woolsbane »
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Lich180

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2015, 05:39:07 pm »

After a while, easy / savage embarks just aren't as FUN. Find an evil biome, with some type of rain/clouds/reanimating interactions, and plenty of FUN will be had.

Alternately, crack open the caverns, break into the magma sea, mine ALL the candy, and then.... Then FUN will be had.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2015, 05:50:00 pm »

- As been said above, goblin sieges should occur only when your pop reaches 80, but it can be set to happen at 50 or 20 by changing the PROGRESS_TRIGGER_POP_SIEGE parameter for the civ in the entity_default.txt file to 2 or 1 respectively (if I've gotten the names correctly).
- Also, embarking next to a black tower allows your new neighbors to pop over for a friendly undeath conversion from the first season onwards (but my experience is that they have the stamina for only about two sieges, so some gobbos is good as well).
- Reanimating evil embarks are rather brutal...
- You can increase the challenge by embarking in places with no surface trees, no metals (forcing you to rely on caravans or captured metal (called "goblinite", although it's just various normal metals). An evil reanimating metal less glacier is a rather nasty challenge.
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Urlance Woolsbane

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2015, 05:55:28 pm »

Yeah, reanimating biomes are the bee's knee corpses. If you want unforgiving DF, they're where you want to go.

Towers, I've not had so much luck with, though they might be more dangerous in the new version.
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gzoker

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2015, 07:11:49 pm »

The first mistake you made was reading the wiki. You could have the most FUN if you tried to learn the game by trial and error.
The worst enemy a person can have is their own incompetence. The second worst is something they know nothing about. It is pretty damn easy to win not to lose, if you know how to defeat everything your opponent can throw at you. If you think about it, maybe, you will realize that you had cheated yourself from this experience.
Your second mistake was, you have chosen the latest version to start playing. The game has become more easy over time, and more "fun" over "FUN" (imo). Earlier versions can be more challenging (40d), and some of the mods(kobold camp) can make it even harder. But the thing is, you can easily defeat almost everything by walling yourself in, underground in a hole with a still and a farm. This game can be as much of a challenge as you want to make it.
The third one is, you didn't consider abandoning a fortress to boredom losing. You should have.
Playing with metarules challanges is another way to make it harder - but yes, for you it's going to be more like sims than ender's game from now on.
Anyway, the only way considered as WIN in this game, is to do something so dwarfy - unnecessary complicated, huge in scale, involving magma and burning away a few hundred hours of your life - that you get into the Hall of Legends.

Or you can just play drunk like everybody else...
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Talanic

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2015, 08:02:27 pm »

There's also mods, although with the newest release out, the mods will take a few weeks or months to get updated.
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dwarf_reform

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2015, 08:05:14 pm »

Yeah.. I'm desperately hoping that a (soon!) dev cycle will be dedicated to !!FUN!!.. Poetry, dancing, scholarly deeds.. All amazing gameplay elements, but not very dwarfy, and not very good harbingers of flaming, toxin-soaked, jaw-gnashing FUN..

I'd like to see more weather (like earthquakes or sinkholes or meteor impacts, and the much-loved yet long-lost flooding mechanic), more forgotten beast skills, swarms of 50+ migrating animals, more depth to the science we all enjoy performing so much..

At this point the temple, the library, the mead halls, in the end, as far as Armok and FUN are concerned, will just be a new room type the same old forgotten beasts will murder dwarves in.. To me "The forgotten beast killed them all while they were at the temple!" or "The beast killed them while they were in the middle of a dance!" is just the same as "The beast killed them all!"..

Another thing to keep in mind is that any overly cruel new mechanics could be on/off toggle-able during worldgen, so you could still get the relatively peaceful worlds we have now, if desired.. Also, on mods, they're fantastic, but!! Sir Toady is a truly unique individual, and even though the potential of modding is endless, the way Toady approaches things is one of a kind.. Certain gameplay elements would only "feel right" if they came straight from The Toad :)

I'd trade all the new features gladly for something like a research facility (complete with all the woes and wonders that real science conjures), or a deep Dwarven Sacrifice mechanic, or some official control over the stance/mindset of our dwarven empires.. or gunpowder..
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Bearskie

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2015, 10:18:45 pm »

Download the Fortress Defence mod, sounds perfect for your tastes. Lotsa sieges.

Salmeuk

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2015, 10:33:36 pm »

Frankly, if you're trying to min-max dwarf fortress you're doing it wrong. It just isn't complete enough for the metagame to bring pleasure, and even if it was closer to completion the game is being made to tell stories.

If you want to play starcraft, try playing starcraft - but if you want an interesting experience you need to learn how to shape your fortress into a story.
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Joey

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Re: New player expectations: where are the enemies?
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2015, 11:54:47 pm »

The idea that you will inevitably lose is silly and misleading, as pretty much every threat can be completely circumvented by closing off all entryways with walls/drawbridges. Losing is fun because the alternative is boring as hell, so doing dumb stuff because it's fun is par the course.

As the other guy said, the game really is not designed for min/maxing, but for faffing about, so ya, feel free to call it The Sims or whatever. The meme that the game is hard just needs to die, or at least rest until the eventuality where it is true.
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